Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
masterblasterofdisaster
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Location: Vancouver BC

Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by masterblasterofdisaster » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:11 pm

lapieuvre wrote:
pencilrocket wrote:
lapieuvre wrote: Audiffex is 150$
cantabile, 139$
Forte, 120$
OpenLabs sells with a computer for 2000$, same for Muse Receptor...
No objective audio quality comparison other than subjective apple's shit hype? I'm already fed up with that type of information which have been resulted in being recognized as hypes for a decade.
What do you mean?
What he means is that his raison d'être is bashing Apple products and making exceptionally inane non-sequiturs posited in the guise of reasonable contention.

milfhuntr
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by milfhuntr » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:48 pm

pencilrocket wrote:
lapieuvre wrote: Audiffex is 150$
cantabile, 139$
Forte, 120$
OpenLabs sells with a computer for 2000$, same for Muse Receptor...
No objective audio quality comparison other than subjective apple's shit hype? I'm already fed up with that type of information which have been resulted in being recognized as hypes for a decade.
I just played the Ableton piano back to back with the Apple piano and bass, etc. I played some drums on the Ultrabeat and also the drum rack. There is no comparison. The Apple piano simply sounds like a real piano. The acoustic instruments sound real. The Ableton sounds sythetic. If they were even close, I would agree with you such as the "summing engine" arguments and stuff. But here the difference is so stark that I really don't need any more data.

The problem is that Mainstage is really incompatible with Ableton as a plugin type of thing. I have tried multiple routing and it does not work well. So therefore I will simply have to buy Logic Pro. I will continue to use Ableton because I like the workflow but I am going to ease my way over to Logic Pro. Perhaps that was Apples intent by making Mainstage not work as a VST, I don't know. I only know the difference in sound is so stark and overwhelming to me, a user of Ableton for 3 years and never even touching Logic, that I have to make a change.

milfhuntr
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by milfhuntr » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Cool, exactly the kind of person I was hoping would buy Mainstage, no copy of Logic in sight!

Logic instruments: Here's a small list, Sculpture, Ultrabeat, ES2, EVB3, EXS24mkII < -- this one is a super fast sampler. Are all these included?

When you Rewire Mainstage into Live it's always the rewire master so Live loses the ability to host VSTs and AUs, just making sure this is the case. Wish Apple would let Mainstage act as a AU plug in host in Live like Kore did.

Still even with having to use AIC and Soundflower to get Sculpture into Live with Live hosting VSTs etc. it's a great deal at $28. Mainstage for Live and DP users might be a little hit for Apple.

Sorry about that. I cannot make Mainstage work as a plugin type of thing. I decided to spring for Logic Pro after all. The sound quality is so different, I have to do it. I am not a trigger pad type of musician, so the whole DJ trigger pad type of thing is not why I was into Ableton. It was workflow and ease of use. But I really need something that sounds like real instruments and high quality so I will gradually work Logic Pro into my workflow. Here goes the learning curve again.

Machinesworking
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:27 pm

UncleAge wrote:
broc wrote:
UncleAge wrote:IAC & Soundflower is not all that clunky considering what you get in exchange. So for $30 I can access more instruments (comments on quality aside) than I can in Suite? If so this should be the no-brainer of the year. Seriously just about every Reaper, Studio One and Live user on OSX could benefit greatly from this package.
Keep in mind that IAC & Soundflower doesn't ensure sample accurate synchronisation and proper delay compensation.
So I think the benefit of using Mainstage instruments with sloppy timing is questionable.
I don't perform live. I hope I can work around this issue. However, your warning is duly noted. Thanks.
Just to add to this, you can record your tracks in Mainstage, without any doubt Apple has included some of Logic's PDC in that process.
So if you're worried about PDC issues that's the way to go. Me, I would rather adjust audio in the track in Live to feel rather than rely on PDC in every case. :)

Machinesworking
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:35 pm

milfhuntr wrote: Sorry about that. I cannot make Mainstage work as a plugin type of thing. I decided to spring for Logic Pro after all. The sound quality is so different, I have to do it. I am not a trigger pad type of musician, so the whole DJ trigger pad type of thing is not why I was into Ableton. It was workflow and ease of use. But I really need something that sounds like real instruments and high quality so I will gradually work Logic Pro into my workflow. Here goes the learning curve again.
Well Logic is a great host too, but you could simply have used rewire with Live, or used Soundflower and AIC to route audio and MIDI between Mainstage and Live.
Logic is a massive learning curve, some things are better in Logic, but at first you won't see that because the first thing that will strike you is how crappy the audio routing is in Logic, it's close to the worst in this regard. Beyond that it has some amazing Arrange Page advantages over the others, and since 95% of the time you're in the Arrange page in Logic it feels liberating. I used Logic for at least 6 years, but moved over to Digital Performer for mixing and composition. I still mainly use Live for composition and arrangement though. Probably going to change that to a Rewire set up soon.

steff3
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by steff3 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:42 pm

[quote="milfhuntr"]

I just played the Ableton piano back to back with the Apple piano and bass, etc. I played some drums on the Ultrabeat and also the drum rack. There is no comparison. The Apple piano simply sounds like a real piano. The acoustic instruments sound real. The Ableton sounds sythetic. If they were even close, I would agree with you such as the "summing engine" arguments and stuff. But here the difference is so stark that I really don't need any more data.

The problem is that Mainstage is really incompatible with Ableton as a plugin type of thing. I have tried multiple routing and it does not work well. So therefore I will simply have to buy Logic Pro. I will continue to use Ableton because I like the workflow but I am going to ease my way over to Logic Pro. Perhaps that was Apples intent by making Mainstage not work as a VST, I don't know. I only know the difference in sound is so stark and overwhelming to me, a user of Ableton for 3 years and never even touching Logic, that I have to make a change.[/quote]

Which MainStage Piano you are referring to? (Sampled - EXS24? Steinway? Yamaha? or EVP88?)
Well, I used Logic for some versions (up to 7.x - now got MainStage and thinking about getting the current version of Logic) and what is really disappointing is the inefficiency of MainStage IMHO. What is fun is the way to layer instruments - I think Apple should integrate this into the next Version of Logic.

I have Live Suite and for acoustic drums I prefer Abletons Session Drums and Latin Percussion over what is in MainStage. I also think that Electric stand up well. But of course there is nothing like Sculpture and UltraBeat, DelayDesigner ....

best

kanuck
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by kanuck » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:04 pm

steff3 wrote:
milfhuntr wrote:
I just played the Ableton piano back to back with the Apple piano and bass, etc. I played some drums on the Ultrabeat and also the drum rack. There is no comparison. The Apple piano simply sounds like a real piano. The acoustic instruments sound real. The Ableton sounds sythetic. If they were even close, I would agree with you such as the "summing engine" arguments and stuff. But here the difference is so stark that I really don't need any more data.

The problem is that Mainstage is really incompatible with Ableton as a plugin type of thing. I have tried multiple routing and it does not work well. So therefore I will simply have to buy Logic Pro. I will continue to use Ableton because I like the workflow but I am going to ease my way over to Logic Pro. Perhaps that was Apples intent by making Mainstage not work as a VST, I don't know. I only know the difference in sound is so stark and overwhelming to me, a user of Ableton for 3 years and never even touching Logic, that I have to make a change.
Which MainStage Piano you are referring to? (Sampled - EXS24? Steinway? Yamaha? or EVP88?)
Well, I used Logic for some versions (up to 7.x - now got MainStage and thinking about getting the current version of Logic) and what is really disappointing is the inefficiency of MainStage IMHO. What is fun is the way to layer instruments - I think Apple should integrate this into the next Version of Logic.

I have Live Suite and for acoustic drums I prefer Abletons Session Drums and Latin Percussion over what is in MainStage. I also think that Electric stand up well. But of course there is nothing like Sculpture and UltraBeat, DelayDesigner ....

best
but some 3rd party plugins are better than all of these. If you really love ableton's workflow and only want to switch to logic for their plugins consider just choose a great piano plugin instead of switching your entire daw.

steff3
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by steff3 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:21 pm

[quote="kanuck"]
but some 3rd party plugins are better than all of these. If you really love ableton's workflow and only want to switch to logic for their plugins consider just choose a great piano plugin instead of switching your entire daw.[/quote]

might be a matter of taste, but I did not find any better drum sequencer than UltraBeat (love the physical modeling and modulation stuff - great for electronic sounds that are not the standard klischee)- that alone is worth US$25. Also Sculpture is quite nice (with Logic even surround capable! - where you find that?) Personally I find evb3 useful. Space Designer is a great sound design tool with its synthetic IRs, Delay Designer is just great. exs24 is also useful, as are some other fx in there, and not easy to find elsewhere.
If you are looking for virtual analog - sure, I look elsewhere.

So, although I cannot agree that are is any 3rd party plugin that is better than ALL of what is included in Logic, I agree that it might not be the best idea to switch to logic just for some of the plugins.

just my opinion,

best

STRATEGY_510
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by STRATEGY_510 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:32 pm

This is starting to sound like a great deal.

I looked it up in the app store, can't find any reference to a sequencer, doesn't it at least have a basic sequencer?

STRATEGY

broc
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by broc » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:52 pm

For questions about the functionality of mainstage read this

http://documentation.apple.com/en/mainstage/usermanual/

atmyriads
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by atmyriads » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:02 pm

Sorry if this has been brought up before.

I´m wondering if it´s possible to use Live and Mainstage at the same time?

My usage scenario would be:
- Have Live play my loops/tracks in the background. Controlled by Touchable.
- Use Mainstage for switching between guitar/vocal patches. Controlled by a foot pedal.

I don´t need them to sync since i´ll be using Mainstage mostly for switching patches. If i launch Live first and then Mainstage, so they´re not rewired, will both apps let sound through? Anyone know if this is possible?

broc
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by broc » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:24 pm

atmyriads wrote:Sorry if this has been brought up before.

I´m wondering if it´s possible to use Live and Mainstage at the same time?

My usage scenario would be:
- Have Live play my loops/tracks in the background. Controlled by Touchable.
- Use Mainstage for switching between guitar/vocal patches. Controlled by a foot pedal.

I don´t need them to sync since i´ll be using Mainstage mostly for switching patches. If i launch Live first and then Mainstage, so they´re not rewired, will both apps let sound through? Anyone know if this is possible?
Yes, it's possible. Both apps run independently and can be routed to the same audio output.
Last edited by broc on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Forge.
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by Forge. » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:26 pm

atmyriads wrote: I don´t need them to sync since i´ll be using Mainstage mostly for switching patches. If i launch Live first and then Mainstage, so they´re not rewired, will both apps let sound through? Anyone know if this is possible?
should be able to - can with Logic

atmyriads
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by atmyriads » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:37 pm

Thanks guys! May indulge me with a little early Mainstage present then :D

nylarch
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Re: Mainstage with Ableton - First Thoughts

Post by nylarch » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:50 pm

I played some drums on the Ultrabeat and also the drum rack. There is no comparison.
Turn your velocity up in the drum rack to about 70 on all pads. Now it sounds the same as UB.
MacBook Pro; Live 8 Suite, Reaktor; '77 Fender Jazz Bass; Apogee One;

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