ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
JessGins
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ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by JessGins » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:31 pm

I am trying to figure out what exactly Smp delay does. From what I think it is, it's delaying the audio sample physically by a certain amount of cents. I just have no clue how big and small the increases are. I just looked through my Live manual, and not a mention. What's the point of a manual if not to explain thing?

-JG

Rabalder
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by Rabalder » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:14 pm

Its just two different ways of measuring the delay amount. No actual difference.
Its like switching a speedometer from miles per hours to kilometer per hours.

All digital audio is chopped up in sample bits, which is what smp displays instead of measuring it in time.

fishmonkey
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by fishmonkey » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:53 pm

your audio is sampled thousands of times per second, and the duration of each sample depends on the sampling frequency.

for example, at 44100 samples per second, each sample lasts for 1/44100 seconds, and you can multiply that by 1000 to find out how many milliseconds each sample is (there are 1000 milliseconds in a second).

so at 44100 samples per second, each sample is 1000 * 1 / 44100 = 0.0208 milliseconds long.

at higher sampling rates, each sample is shorter.

working back the other way, if your delay is 10 ms at 44100 samples per second, then the number of samples = 10 / 0.0208 = 481 samples.

whether you use the sample delay or the millisecond delay depends on what kind of latency you are trying to take care of. sometimes you will know the actual delay in milliseconds, sometimes you will know it in samples. e.g. the manual of a particular plug-in might tell you that it adds 100 samples of latency. or, you might measure the actual latency of getting a signal from an external hardware synth or microphone through your audio interface, and know that it is 14 milliseconds...

JessGins
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by JessGins » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:45 am

Thanks for that info fishmonkey. What I wanted to find out was wether this was actually a finer delay tool than using time delay. Since it's finer, it might come in handy for stereo imaging effects.

Rabalder
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by Rabalder » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:54 am

So I dont get a thanks ay? Im shocked 8O :cry:

JessGins
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by JessGins » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:59 pm

lol, Rabaider, you get a golden star for effort, but saying they are exactly the same is wrong!

each sample is 0.0208 milliseconds long

lol appreciate you replying the thread, now we both learned something new ;)

Rabalder
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by Rabalder » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:30 pm

Well ok then.. But it is basically just two different ways of measuring the same thing. Like inches and millimeters. Isnt it???

Ill stop bitching now :mrgreen:

fishmonkey
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:57 pm

sorta kinda.

it's more like millimeters and toothpicks. millimeters gives you an absolute measure of length, however you need to know how long the toothpicks are to know what 10 toothpicks means.

Rabalder
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by Rabalder » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:40 pm

I can only see my answer as "wrong" if you dont know the sample rate (which you always do in Live)..
If you know the sample rate, you would also know how long 1 bit is.
Knowing this, smp would also be an absolute measure (relative to the sample rate).
But since time itself is relative, I suppose we`re all both right and wrong 8)

BUT, as the title says: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?
The only difference is how you view the amount you delay the track.
No matter how many decimals you would use in ms-mode, the audio is still built up by bits, you just see chunks of them put into milliseconds.

So when using ms, you just measure the delayed time by how many bits you fit into the desired amount of ms..
As to smp, you measure the delayed time in the actual bit by bit.
There is no real difference in delaying a track with 1 ms compared to 44,1 smp. They are the same... (as long the sample rate is 44100 of course)

Right??? No actual difference.... (as I understood the question was all about..)

Sorry, had to bitch a little more.. :mrgreen:

fishmonkey
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:01 pm

haha, well clearly you understand the maths.

still, saying they are the same, like km/hr & miles/hr or inches & mm isn't right.

of course there is an 'actual' difference, otherwise we wouldn't have the two different measures. one is a direct measure of time, the other isn't.

Tone Deft
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:02 am

Rabalder wrote:you would also know how long 1 bit is.
no.

you know how often each WORD is transmitted, which is a 32 bit or 24 bit word depending on the interface.

I thought the toothpick analogy was pretty good.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Mage2k
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by Mage2k » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:38 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Rabalder wrote:you would also know how long 1 bit is.
no.

you know how often each WORD is transmitted, which is a 32 bit or 24 bit word depending on the interface.

I thought the toothpick analogy was pretty good.
Thank you! Reading that one bit line was like finger nails on a chalk board for me.


Rabalder
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Re: ms vs Smp for Track Delay? What's the actual difference?

Post by Rabalder » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:37 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Rabalder wrote:you would also know how long 1 bit is.
no.
Well, thanks for the update.. I dont really know anything about this stuff other than what Ive learned on this forum :lol:
Hate being wrong though :oops:

Exactly what are the facts you need to know in order to find out how long 1 bit is???
jestermgee wrote:How many pounds in a gallon?
Wouldnt this actually back up my malfunctioning theory?? That is, if you know what kind of liquid is used and in which conditions.
Then you would also know how many pounds one gallon is. The simple answer would be; one gallon of water = 8,35 pounds.
But I suppose density, temperature and gravity has to much influence to say anything is absolute..
But if you knew all the facts, comparing the two would be simple.

Ahhhhhh.. The questions, the questions.

I could do this stuff all day long.


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