All this about sound quality

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
nathannn
Posts: 3317
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
Location: U.S.

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by nathannn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:15 am

@ db? of course its "flawed" scientifically, most of your postings are about using your ears.
there is no other way due to current technology to do a real world test against two daws.

shit, we could go as far as saying maybe two copys of live are not the same.

im trying to think of the most unbiased approach to finally end this 11 year long topic.
this type of test (which is the most obvious test) has never been done.
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

nathannn
Posts: 3317
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
Location: U.S.

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by nathannn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:28 am

newboss wrote:
monolake wrote:how comes that newboss and dbfs are fitting so perfectly well together in their ongoing mission against
Live? and how comes that they both make simmilar grammar and spelling mistskes? i am not saying that they are both 3phase, i am just saying that it is getting harder and harder to proof that they are not....
Are you getting paranoid now with the old age?
This is extremely disrespectful, especially to a person who has devoted their life to music and to some one who has taught many many people many things about audio.
from now on we really should keep these conversations peaceful until we get some real results. after that off with each others heads i guess.
Last edited by nathannn on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

newboss
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by newboss » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:30 am

dbfs wrote:
And even that test is flawed because pieces of gear are inherently "different" sounding. Even if they are the same piece of gear. So getting two identical sound cards could potentially screw up the test. Hell, two different computers could even be a problem.

no problem.. you run the test daws on the same computer with the same inetrface and driver config..

And you record the outcome analoge in a higher resolution with good converters..

so test daw on 44k.. analyzing system on 96 k on another computer. anylyzing system a propper audio editor not a daw.. maybe wavelab.. samplitude.. whatever.

In any case you are not allowed to test a daw with itself.. the analyzing system needs tio be independend from the test computer.
only that will give valid results..

And that makes it a bit difficult to perform such tests for the single user...

dbfs
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:49 pm
Location: N. Korea

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by dbfs » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:33 am

nathannn wrote:@ db? of course its "flawed" scientifically, most of your postings are about using your ears.
there is no other way due to current technology to do a real world test against two daws.

shit, we could go as far as saying maybe two copys of live are not the same.

im trying to think of the most unbiased approach to finally end this 11 year long topic.
this type of test (which is the most obvious test) has never been done.
Ah ha! So we admit that there is no real world way to do a proper test against two hosts! Now we are getting somewhere! And if there is no proper way to perform such a test, then all the people claiming there is no difference are the crazy ones now. I like where this is going, its almost magical! 8O

We are limited by our technology at this time and we cannot accurately claim, in good consciousness, that each host software (stop saying DAW, thats the whole "system" - not the software) sums its material the same way and the outcome is the same.

Progress!
Last edited by dbfs on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

newboss
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by newboss » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:35 am

nathannn wrote: This is extremely disrespectful, especially to a person who has devoted their life to music and to some one who has taught many many people many things about audio.
sorry.. 80% of the people i know fall into that department, and they all just cook with water.
And its disrespectfull too to disqualify other peoples opinions by being anal about writing styles and to suggest evil intentions.

nathannn
Posts: 3317
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
Location: U.S.

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by nathannn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:41 am

newboss wrote:
dbfs wrote:
And even that test is flawed because pieces of gear are inherently "different" sounding. Even if they are the same piece of gear. So getting two identical sound cards could potentially screw up the test. Hell, two different computers could even be a problem.

no problem.. you run the test daws on the same computer with the same inetrface and driver config..

And you record the outcome analoge in a higher resolution with good converters..

so test daw on 44k.. analyzing system on 96 k on another computer. anylyzing system a propper audio editor not a daw.. maybe wavelab.. samplitude.. whatever.

In any case you are not allowed to test a daw with itself.. the analyzing system needs tio be independend from the test computer.
only that will give valid results..

And that makes it a bit difficult to perform such tests for the single user...
how would you record audio into two daws "software" on the same computer at the same time?
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

macmurphy
Posts: 1431
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:21 am
Location: Emneth,Norfolk, UK

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by macmurphy » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:45 am

i just want to make music :?

dbfs
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:49 pm
Location: N. Korea

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by dbfs » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:49 am

newboss wrote:
dbfs wrote:
And even that test is flawed because pieces of gear are inherently "different" sounding. Even if they are the same piece of gear. So getting two identical sound cards could potentially screw up the test. Hell, two different computers could even be a problem.

no problem.. you run the test daws on the same computer with the same inetrface and driver config..

And you record the outcome analoge in a higher resolution with good converters..

so test daw on 44k.. analyzing system on 96 k on another computer. anylyzing system a propper audio editor not a daw.. maybe wavelab.. samplitude.. whatever.

In any case you are not allowed to test a daw with itself.. the analyzing system needs tio be independend from the test computer.
only that will give valid results..

And that makes it a bit difficult to perform such tests for the single user...
You're absolutely correct! And you're basically saying what I've been saying this whole thread. But ya know.. people got to go through the motions of acting all superior and shit because they learned a little somethin' about audio.

Ya know what? I have an actual degree in engineering. You don't think I haven't learned the same shit everyone else has about audio? Of course I did! I know about your Baxendall curves, modifying your least significant bits, and your Kirchoff's and your Nyquist's and so on and so forth... I know all that bullshit too. I just don't feel the need to act like its the end all be all. I was taught to challenge what I've been told. And thats what I do. Try to find answers in things I cannot explain, but was told something otherwise.

Then go and make some music then macmurphy - No one forced you to post in this thread and get involved in some bullshit you ain't ready for.
Last edited by dbfs on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

nathannn
Posts: 3317
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
Location: U.S.

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by nathannn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:52 am

macmurphy wrote:i just want to make music :?
me too but seriously this is something that should have been done a long long time ago.
its like the final test that can be done, and the only one that matters since its about what you are hearing.
i know null test are suppose to be about hearing but they are always done with a single track, or something that was pre recorded, there's no example of simultaneous recording into two daws.
to be completely unbiased you need to test all scenarios and then do a null test.
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

macmurphy
Posts: 1431
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:21 am
Location: Emneth,Norfolk, UK

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by macmurphy » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:55 am

yeah well, to be honest i moved to reaper a while ago because i prefer the mixer :wink:

i have no place in this thread :mrgreen:

nathannn
Posts: 3317
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
Location: U.S.

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by nathannn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:57 am

you moved completely to reaper?
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

dbfs
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:49 pm
Location: N. Korea

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by dbfs » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:59 am

macmurphy wrote:yeah well, to be honest i moved to reaper a while ago because i prefer the mixer :wink:

i have no place in this thread :mrgreen:
At least your honest and not blowing smoke. Thats a good quality. 8)

newboss
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by newboss » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:05 am

nathannn wrote: how would you record audio into two daws on the same computer at the same time?
syncing them with timecode accessing the same audio ports simultaniously? or running multiple computers accesing the same Ad ports via adat or madi links?..

thats not the problem.. creating an identical mix situation is difficult..especially when we want to hear it with automation ..

we want to know how the daws sound in the mix.. i see the possibility that they sound the same after all when no ableton internal plugs are used.

however when i read in abletons audio fact sheet that they did just a plain addition of 80 tracks and nulled them "allmost" perfectly i doubt that theire tests went as deep really.

newboss
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by newboss » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:23 am

nathannn wrote: to be completely unbiased you need to test all scenarios and then do a null test.
forget about the null test.. you wont be able to achive perfect nulling when running a propper mix scenario ...

There has to be an subjektive evaluation by ear on the test files.. there is no way around that..

but with a defined and well conductet test theese files could be evaluated by many people. maybe its just a matter of taste after all.. psychoacoustic phenomenons can be caused by smallest artefacts well below the noise floor of a mix.

maybe the daws sound the same..
maybe they just sound different..
maybe a majority experiences one as better and maybe its really just a thing that happens in certain setups and is clearly a bug.. when that is the case the tests would be extensive..

i would need to get my old laptop back..at least as long i dont have any sightings of the brown henke dither on my new machine..

And what would such a test bring.. either you get identical results..than you need to question your sanity .but as experianced sound engineer you only start trusting the thing anyway only when it never happens again.. so at least 1 year.. so you dont need the effort to achieve that,. just keep on going and watch it.. or just dont mix with live..

Or you get your proove that it sounds different.. and than many users will claim that they just like it as it is.. the typical ableton sound.. and nothing will change anyway..

just the scenario wher you would be able to show that ther is a bug that only effect some setups would lead to changes..

When you cant proove it to be a bug the tests are pretty useless.. and to proove that you can spend month..

yep.. right.. no test ... i will report when the phenomen shows up again.. but will only test the external fx plug again..thats much easier to perform.

crumhorn
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: All this about sound quality

Post by crumhorn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:50 am

pencilrocket wrote:
Tarekith wrote:Well, that's the thing, people often skim what I write and assume I'm saying "This is right, nothing else". That's not it at all, I'm usually presenting what I know I can reproducibly share with others so we can get to the bottom of this kind of stuff, because it fascinates me too. There's no doubt that people hear things differently, and that sometimes our ears play tricks on us. In lieu of that, the best we can do is narrow down the circumstances of those kind of situations to rule out as many variables as possible.

So people ask me to prove my point, and I do my best to do so by providing audio examples that show WHY I don't buy into the argument that all things being equal Live is inherently inferior sounding to other DAWs. The problem, is that no one can provide concrete examples to prove their counter-point, it just ends up with them saying "well I know what I hear, and Live always sounds worse."

Fair enough but if it's that obvious to someone, then it shouldn't be that hard to demonstrate that, and yet no one has. I'm not doubting what people think they hear, I just want to hear it for myself if it's such a common thing. And so far to date, no one has stepped up and found a reliable way to show that. So it doesn't prove that they're wrong, but it's not swaying me to their way of thinking either.

If this is such an obvious issue with Live, why can't we come up with a way to show it?
As I said in other thread, it's not surprising to see those kind of reaction here who say "I hear sound different", "I believe my ear over the science". They Ableton have been sold their product to the noob people who are willing to obtain low spec products (except Mac Pro, this is genuine workstation) and low performance OS rather than higher end machine and higher performance OS because of the 'I feel one sound better' or 'I believe my feeling over science' things. The company hyped products and people have been buying it and they believe "hey I'm one of cool peeps cuz I got Ableton", "Live is cool program because they say it is used by ****(your favorite artist)", "Live is the best software because they say it's the best". This is very standard practice for business to sell products or service to noobs, stupid people, uncultured people. That's the business. You may know the market for Lemons. I know you have seen these type of people here, usualy they are called macfag (as for apple fanboy) who believe Apple and other macfags' hype as truth. It's quite natural process for this community, and we don't have to supress those because it's useless for them. We can hardly educate those people. They don't care at all how the truth is. They do care how they feel. This is most important thing for them. The one thing being different from the the market for Lemons is that the fanboys are happy with their heyped products until they die (or realize while growing up). I don't think it's bad thing as long as they don't try to involve other people in their religion.

Hilarious
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

Post Reply