finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
agent314
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by agent314 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:40 pm

"In a gold rush, sell shovels"
Are you talking about the updates to 9 in particular, or the Push functionality?

Also, very aptly put

dnbhallifax
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dnbhallifax » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:43 pm

Szuumm wrote:
dnbhallifax wrote:An Ableton audio interface? Got one already
Where did you get an Ableton audio interface? I'd like to check that out.
Lol, no I mean that I already have an audio interface, and with 'push' it looks like Ableton's going to start developing branded hardware. Sorry for the confusion :oops:

dnbhallifax
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dnbhallifax » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:49 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote: The new from ground up programmed software of Bitwig
is up to date and uses the latest technology to make use of today's processors.
Live's software isn't competitive in that way and full of bugs.
I can run the same amount of VST's in StudioOne at half CPU !
Definitely, Studio One runs sooo much faster and lighter than Live! And once you bookmark your folders, their browser's miles better than Live 9's by miles :wink:

dnbhallifax
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dnbhallifax » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:58 pm

beatz01 wrote:... the pathetic Steve Jobs wannabe presentation and so on, it all sreams:

"We want to be Apple!"

Yeah, I think they spent more time developing that horrid seminar than they did developing Live 9.

mr.ergonomics
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by mr.ergonomics » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:21 pm

beatz01 wrote:My point was that it looks as if Ableton want a bigger share of the prosumer/consumer market and hence the positioning in the more lifestyle/fun gadgets/"everything is so easy"(although it's not) category.I'm not saying L9 IS easier than L8 or anything, i'm talking about a shift in their MARKETING.
one of the biggest problems of our time. marketing is the enemy. I admire RME for being such a reliable, solid but also damn successful company. Furthermore for me it's the best buying experience to buy their gear because I know it's not a 50% discount event around the corner and the gear works near to perfection (at least for me).

Angstrom
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Angstrom » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:42 pm

agent314 wrote:
"In a gold rush, sell shovels"
Are you talking about the updates to 9 in particular, or the Push functionality?

Also, very aptly put
I would say that for both products. When they considered what was important to include and what their prospective purchasers might value, it seems that things like " accessing and previewing partner content" is top of the list, while "managing existing/user content" wasn't actually on the list.


The new browser didn't prioritise user content, user organisation methods, user creative requirements and circumstances. Instead it prioritised partner content, partner organisation methods, partner requirements.
Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.

Of all of our various working methods, situations, musics, organisation methods. Whose does this conform to?
Or do we conform to it?

Machinesworking
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:57 pm

Angstrom nails it again.

Push is an absolute perfect example of this.
I saw a demo of it locally and it's lovely, really quite compelling,
and has almost zero place in my workflow. I came out of the demo thinking I'm gonna buy that now!
Getting home and looking at my set up, I'm not that inclined to give up a regular keyboard go live performance, I don't need to step sequence live, and the Launchpad was a whopping $100. the main advantage of push for me would be VST loading,. It asks not what it can do for your workflow but what you can do with it's workflow.

agent314
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by agent314 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:05 pm

I would say that for both products. When they considered what was important to include and what their prospective purchasers might value, it seems that things like " accessing and previewing partner content" is top of the list, while "managing existing/user content" wasn't actually on the list.


The new browser didn't prioritise user content, user organisation methods, user creative requirements and circumstances. Instead it prioritised partner content, partner organisation methods, partner requirements.
Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.

Of all of our various working methods, situations, musics, organisation methods. Whose does this conform to?
Or do we conform to it?
Very interesting observation. I wonder to what extent this was an issue of fiscal prudence/necessity (i.e. leverage an incidental income stream rather than rely on the big bang at new release time) vs. an effort to push Ableton as a brand for sound resources rather than strictly the DAW tool

However:
Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.
Where do you mean? I don't have any Other folders in my browser?

H20nly
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by H20nly » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:18 pm

^ 8O that means Ableton doesn't give a shit about you!




they dismiss you like no Other.

agent314
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by agent314 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:18 am

Thinking about my analogy earlier, maybe it could be the other way around

Maybe the Bitwig guys who left Ableton are the ones with the real original idea, and it's their baby and a genuine expression of their desires, the way Live used to be for them.

Maybe 9 will become the app that lost vision, because it went with the dudes to Bitwig

We shall see

All I know is, for my purposes, Live 9 is great and it's fortunate that I love using it.
Looking forward to trying Bitwig, but until I get my hands on it, I'm glad to have what I've got.

dnbhallifax
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dnbhallifax » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:06 am

agent314 wrote:Thinking about my analogy earlier, maybe it could be the other way around

Maybe the Bitwig guys who left Ableton are the ones with the real original idea, and it's their baby and a genuine expression of their desires, the way Live used to be for them.

Maybe 9 will become the app that lost vision, because it went with the dudes to Bitwig...
That's sort of my point. If these guys really jumped ship to start Bitwig, i would wager to say that it's because they were probably being stifled by development priorities that shifted toward developing "strategically designed" bullshit like the new browser (as so elegantly broken down by Angstrom) and no interest in new ideas that might actually lead to anything innovative or practical.

I worked for 2 years for an audio app company that was developing an Ipad remixing app and they literally spent weeks upon weeks strategizing how the browser would work in order to encourage the user to buy, or use "partner" content; and essentially put user content as low as possible on the priority list without somehow letting the user feel as if they weren't important. The developers were f-ing miserable because no one was really all that interested in any ideas that were actually useful. It always came back to design and brand over functionality. Needless to say they failed miserably and all the programmers walked...

But the point here is this, isn't there an obvious point that these marketing retards always miss?
If you don't have users then you don't have customers... It's not fucking rocket science.

ze2be
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by ze2be » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:27 am

Ableton has something like 1.7 mill customers. The consept was built by Gerhart (CEO) and Robert Henke. Before Live they first made a test version in Max Msp.

SpeedKing
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by SpeedKing » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:26 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:
SpeedKing wrote: EDIT: Obviously I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't LOVE Ableton is childish, but I'm speaking more of the simpli.cissimus' of the world here.
...and that Edit is just a proof that the way you mentioned me shows that you're the one who's childish !

Had the impression to read a Kardashian tweet... :lol:
No, the edit was proof that you stood out in my mind as probably the most consistently childish.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by simpli.cissimus » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:07 pm

agent314 wrote:Thinking about my analogy earlier, maybe it could be the other way around

Maybe the Bitwig guys who left Ableton are the ones with the real original idea, and it's their baby and a genuine expression of their desires, the way Live used to be for them.

Maybe 9 will become the app that lost vision, because it went with the dudes to Bitwig

We shall see

All I know is, for my purposes, Live 9 is great and it's fortunate that I love using it.
Looking forward to trying Bitwig, but until I get my hands on it, I'm glad to have what I've got.
To underline how you nailed it, lets look at the new stuff in Live9

EQ8 improved - as much as I read it was the developer of Glue who improved it !
(how embarrassing this is... :oops: )

Glue itself - made by third party !
MAX devices - also made by third party
Push - made by third party

What's left ?
A browser made for Push support, some face lift,
a imitation of Melodyne and some sloppy working curves

Must have been three hard working years for Ableton programmers. :lol:



Looking at Bitwig, I could add more then 10 innovations(already done in many post's)
including that all what Live offers is already in Bitwig too.

Bitwig is also fresh from start programmed and has 64bit really working,
where Ableton them self not recommending it(if I'm right)

All these are facts and not made up !

Bitwig developers were the ones with the ideas, but I think some managers wanted to
leave the innovative side and "Push" Live to a money maker.
(Including a Apple-Like presentation ala Steve Jobs(R.I.P.)
Live 9 is build for that and the price tags shows it.

I don't expect any serious improvements and new functions until Live 10.
Depends if they find more third part programmers to join the big "Live-Boat". :mrgreen:
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

agent314
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by agent314 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:52 pm

Must have been three hard working years for Ableton programmers.
I'm inclined to think there have been a lot of structural, behind-the-scenes code changes, which could explain the lack of whizbang-wow-look-at-that features in 9, and why there was so much third-party development from Cytomic Andy/the Max people/etc.

Session view automation alone was supposed to require a substantial reconfiguration of a lot of Live's internals, not to mention releasing an upgrade to 64-bit mid-version.
Bitwig is also fresh from start programmed and has 64bit really working,
where Ableton them self not recommending it
Starting from a fresh code base can be a blessing and a curse though. 10 years of development, you're going to run into and address a lot of bugs related to real-world use issues (hardware device/driver support, VST issues, etc) that you only find when you have thousands and thousand of actual users using your program. But you're also constrained to legacy code, which can limit flexibility.

To say that Ableton is "not recommending" 64-bit mischaracterizes what they said, I think. Their stance is basically "use 64-bit if you need it, know that there are still some items that aren't fully compatible yet, but if you're not running into memory issues now, there's no reason to use 64-bit" which isn't the same as "it's crap, use at your own risk".

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