finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
skatr2
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by skatr2 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:04 pm

They've maintained the same policy since pre-64 bit. The thought that MOST people don't need it as MOST systems out there cap out at 4gb of ram off the shelf. Its only the power users who are adding more and want to take advantage of it. Chances are this is a very small percentage of live users as a whole.

JuanSOLO
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by JuanSOLO » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:18 pm

agent314 wrote:I'm inclined to think there have been a lot of structural, behind-the-scenes code changes, which could explain the lack of whizbang-wow-look-at-that features in 9,
I'm skeptical.
In regards to amazing feature requests, I have seen quite a few responses from Abelton employees that sound as if the vision is hitting a wall.
Responses like
"Why would you want to do that?"
"How would that work in practical use?"
"Have you tried this M4L device?" (which dosent apply to requested feature)
etc etc

It took forever to get Session Automation recording into clips, now that its there cool, but there is still no option to snapshot device parameters per clip.
Ableton idea of presets is hotswapping, but this is extreamly crude in a Live performance considering hardware has been recalling parameter snapshots since the 80's, via program change.

Live's CPU meter still makes zero since, anything over %50 is wack.
From what I understand through responses, it has something to do with Live not really working correctly with multiple cores.

It's things like that which make me wonder if the lack of wiz bang is simply stubbornness.


If the bitwig guys had a big influence on DrumRacks, Racks, GroupTracks, in L7 I can imagine their software will be moving forward in ways Ableton refuses too.

In the NAMM videos, one of the guys from bitwig sounds very sincere about his love for Live, and at the same time you since his excitement about pushing those ideas to the next level.

dnbhallifax
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dnbhallifax » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:31 am

funken wrote:
It's not rocket science, it's capitalism. The rocket scientists moved into finance after the cold war ended. Not sayin it was a particularly successful transition or owt.

In the modern world, marketing is more important than the actual product. And the customer is not important whatsoever. Generally speaking. Not saying Ableton are like that, Ableton is a small company started by enthusiasts.
Well some companies still do manage to be great at marketing and still continue to release software that is always at the front of the pack (WHICH I DO think Live did all the way through version 8....)

9 however I feel is a joke, and illustrates a new phase where user functionality looks to be at the bottom of the priority list.

NI, as I mentioned is brilliant on all fronts. Their marketing is slick and simplified to win over everyone from professionals to novices, but no matter what, just about everything they put out is really well designed and the development completely thought through before releasing.
They have everyone from the bedroom dj to the career film and television composer covered with everything from Traktor to Kontakt. They even have some of the best guitar amp emulation to cover guitarists. IMO they really don't miss many marks, they market well, but listen and keep their users happy. Seems to me like they do a great job of keeping their overlords happy while keeping in perspective the fact that without their users they have nothing; and understand that as you said - IT IS CAPITOLISM - and therefore if you're smart about business - you realize that happy users only lead to a bigger market share when you're playing in pond as small as the DAW community.

I personally think live failed monumentally with 9 - at least so far... And I just don't see any of the 'enthusiam' you mention shining through anywhere.

skatr2
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by skatr2 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:45 am

I think where 9failed so far wasn't in what it delivered...but more in what it released. So far for many its been buggy and in some aspect unusable. We knew the new features going in and many of us were stoked. But to release software for that kinda dough where everyone who purchases is essentially a beta tester is problematic...and unfortunately is a growing trend in many software markets.

pencilrocket
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by pencilrocket » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:25 pm

dnbhallifax wrote:NI, as I mentioned is brilliant on all fronts. Their marketing is slick and simplified to win over everyone from professionals to novices, but no matter what, just about everything they put out is really well designed and the development completely thought through before releasing.
They have everyone from the bedroom dj to the career film and television composer covered with everything from Traktor to Kontakt. They even have some of the best guitar amp emulation to cover guitarists. IMO they really don't miss many marks, they market well, but listen and keep their users happy. Seems to me like they do a great job of keeping their overlords happy while keeping in perspective the fact that without their users they have nothing; and understand that as you said - IT IS CAPITOLISM - and therefore if you're smart about business - you realize that happy users only lead to a bigger market share when you're playing in pond as small as the DAW community.

I personally think live failed monumentally with 9 - at least so far... And I just don't see any of the 'enthusiam' you mention shining through anywhere.
Who would think the company has volunteer for their official forum to moderate and answer users' question good? As for ableton, at least their HQ is doing. It's far more professional and sincere. It bears no comparison.

*spell
Last edited by pencilrocket on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

dna598
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dna598 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:37 pm

Just chiming in here,-

I am very much looking forward to bitwig, but also know there is no slice to midi in the version we will see first. I read it on the bitwig FB page.

that's quite a big problem for me.

So it might not ALL be roses when it arrives!
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection

dnbhallifax
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dnbhallifax » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:08 pm

JuanSOLO wrote: I'm skeptical.
... I have seen quite a few responses from Abelton employees that sound as if the vision is hitting a wall.
Responses like
"Why would you want to do that?"
"How would that work in practical use?"
"Have you tried this M4L device?" (which dosent apply to requested feature)
etc etc
Case in point, just received this response from Ableton this morning:

Me: "consider developing the ability to have multiple templates in the future for Live 9. My default set is useless if I want to do some trailer music and therefore forces me to work in Logic. There are certain DAW features, such as this, that are universal for a simple reason - many artists work on many different projects in many different ways..."

Support response: "Thank you for sharing your wishes regarding multiple templates!
But why are you not creating different normal sets and use them as template?" :evil:

My reply back, "because it would be a project file and not a template now wouldn't it? the question is, why wouldn't users want to do this?" :lol:

.... Facking cants

agent314
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by agent314 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:29 pm

Support response: "Thank you for sharing your wishes regarding multiple templates!
But why are you not creating different normal sets and use them as template?"
Funny, this is exactly the thought that crossed my mind when I was reading your request - why not just have Starter sets that you can load and Save As for whatever project you're working on?

This is what I do on occasion, if I know I'm going to be working on a track in a given style.
because it would be a project file and not a template now wouldn't it?
You do realize that that is what the default template set is, right? Just a set saved however you want, that gets automatically loaded when you start Live?

Angstrom
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Angstrom » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:42 pm

agent314 wrote:
Support response: "Thank you for sharing your wishes regarding multiple templates!
But why are you not creating different normal sets and use them as template?"
Funny, this is exactly the thought that crossed my mind when I was reading your request - why not just have Starter sets that you can load and Save As for whatever project you're working on?

This is what I do on occasion, if I know I'm going to be working on a track in a given style.
because it would be a project file and not a template now wouldn't it?
You do realize that that is what the default template set is, right? Just a set saved however you want, that gets automatically loaded when you start Live?

That is not correct that these are equivalent. There is a flaw in your argument.

The problem with having several .als files as defaults ("film scoring", "rock", "DJ", etc) is that any set must belong to a project. By using pseudo-templates as you describe you will be left with abandoned waves, or waves in incorrect folders.

Here is a breakdown of how it fails
  1. Open a 'template' set from mytemplates/my-rock-template.als
  2. record a guitar
  3. save the set as /mysongs/new rock song
  4. examine the guitar wave you just recorded
Outcome : the guitar you recorded will reside in mytemplates/samples/recorded and NOT in the set which you saved.

The reason for this is : the 'template' set belongs to a project and the recordings will go in there even if you don't save the 'template'. When you do save to the location you desire the recordings will not be moved (as you might expect), unless you collect all and save, even then - the duplicates will not be moved, only copied. Your template project folder will eventually be filled with abandoned waves from every song you ever started..

dnbhallifax
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by dnbhallifax » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:39 pm

Exactly my reasoning for suggesting this ;)
It's not the same, and if for any reason you save it as a project (by accident or whatever) you run the risk of getting orphaned files... plus it's just a downright handy feature, and one I bet most Live users would start to actually use regularly.

Not only that, templates would show up right in your browser. No need to open anything and drill through any menus, just click your template and go from there...

(And I actually do scoring work in addition to electronic music, so glad you made that particular point..) Having a "trailer" template prebuilt with all of my orchestral rips, impacts and film percussion would be more than handy. On the flip side, having 8 gigs of Kontakt samples loaded into ram that I won't use in a dance track serves no purpose at all and only means I have to kick all of those samples out of ram before I can get started.

Either way it's just a smug answer. I would actually have preferred to get an email saying we have no plans in developing templates as part of Live than some support geek making me feel like this is some kind of useless feature (that is standard, for obvious resons, in any other DAW...)
Once again... facking cants... :evil:

heavensdaw
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by heavensdaw » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:13 pm

Mate.. you should just stick to making electronic musak.. save a whole lot of hassle! :lol:

Hd

Valiumdupeuple
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Valiumdupeuple » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:22 pm

Angstrom wrote:
agent314 wrote:
Support response: "Thank you for sharing your wishes regarding multiple templates!
But why are you not creating different normal sets and use them as template?"
Funny, this is exactly the thought that crossed my mind when I was reading your request - why not just have Starter sets that you can load and Save As for whatever project you're working on?

This is what I do on occasion, if I know I'm going to be working on a track in a given style.
because it would be a project file and not a template now wouldn't it?
You do realize that that is what the default template set is, right? Just a set saved however you want, that gets automatically loaded when you start Live?

That is not correct that these are equivalent. There is a flaw in your argument.

The problem with having several .als files as defaults ("film scoring", "rock", "DJ", etc) is that any set must belong to a project. By using pseudo-templates as you describe you will be left with abandoned waves, or waves in incorrect folders.

Here is a breakdown of how it fails
  1. Open a 'template' set from mytemplates/my-rock-template.als
  2. record a guitar
  3. save the set as /mysongs/new rock song
  4. examine the guitar wave you just recorded
Outcome : the guitar you recorded will reside in mytemplates/samples/recorded and NOT in the set which you saved.

The reason for this is : the 'template' set belongs to a project and the recordings will go in there even if you don't save the 'template'. When you do save to the location you desire the recordings will not be moved (as you might expect), unless you collect all and save, even then - the duplicates will not be moved, only copied. Your template project folder will eventually be filled with abandoned waves from every song you ever started..
If you load your my-whatever-template, then save it as a new set before starting to record music it will all be good. No files will be stored within your template, ever. Actually, your recordings sit in the temporary folder until you save it as a new project. And Live will ask you if you want to keep the files or not when closing a set you haven't saved. (I'm curious to understand why it's looks different for some of you guys, though).
BTW, a template doesn't necessarily belong to a project. An als. is all you need. I'm using different templates, and they're just sitting as .als in a folder.

CFM
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by CFM » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:54 pm

Lots going on here!

In the end DAW's are DAW's and a person uses the one they like - I've known a few old pro's still using a version of Cubase on an Atari ST. Talk about VST's and a glazed look comes across their face but it does what they want it to do (plus they know it inside out). New features do not automatically mean it's better. For many years I used Cakewalk Sonar and every release there was a truck load of new 'stuff'. Most of it you don't use and the basic looping of audio was still not a patch on Live. What I'm saying Live 9 may not have had 50 new virtual instruments/effects or features but it does what it says it does on the tin. We can argue was the upgrade price worth it - for me yes as I now have M4L. I think the problem for Live is that it has an identity problem. I assume a good number of people use it like a traditional DAW while others use it in more DJ way, live mixing + Push. Developers then get confused in what direction they want to take it - too DJ and the traditionalist will leave - too traditional the DJ'ers will leave.

Bitwig modular idea looks interesting but nothing new. Bidule maybe of interest to some (http://www.plogue.com/products/bidule/.

Live 9 suite is certainly not a consumer price - we will wait and see how it does.

At the moment only if Bitwig offer a stunning price - and I mean stunning like £50 - will switch (or trial) Bitwig. Of-course, that it when it finally gets released from the bedroom.

agent314
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by agent314 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:53 am

If you load your my-whatever-template, then save it as a new set before starting to record music it will all be good. No files will be stored within your template, ever
This is exactly right. If I'm working from a template, the very first thing I do is Save As into my Ableton folder and I'm good to go. All recorded audio gets saved to the project folder.
Been doing this for years without issue.

I keep my template sets saved to my Desktop and then just double-click those to start Live and get working.

Angstrom
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Angstrom » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:07 am

Hmm, when I tried this method all my files became entangled.
Quite often i try a quick idea and if its some trite shit then it doesnt deserve saving. So I don't naturally save an empty set, then begin. I tend to start something and it only gets saved if the idea comes out passably

I know from the wreckage left behind last time I tried to "save before I start" that I can't do it. I had to spend days un-entangling files.

However, I should probably say that I don't really struggle without multiple templates, I just have the one "default" which is full of everything I normally use, and I just delete the channels I don't need. Multiple templates would be pleasant, but I get along ok without them.

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