finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:47 pm

dnbhallifax wrote:Live is just a re-iteration of all DAWs that came before it, and aside from the clip launcher, it's really not all that unique.
Exactly. Even the idea of clip launching wasn't thought of in a vacuum, other DAWs had similar concepts, Logic for instance had "Touch Tracks" for launching MIDI runs with a keyboard key.
The main advantage to Live over the rest was the input quantize feature of launching, so things would be precise to the millisecond. Plus that they organized it all in Session View specifically designed for that purpose.


This is all similar to Microsoft taking the GUI idea from Apple who had taken it from Xerox. When Apple sued, they lost 90% of the lawsuits because you can't patent a generalized idea, it's like patenting 'a car that flies'. The only reason they won some was due to lines of code Microsoft ripped, and that's still debatable because Apple and MS aren't talking about it...

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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Sibanger » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:03 am

dnbhallifax wrote: Anyway, here's another pretty interesting video from NAMM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqQhgbJSpmI
Workflow = 8)

I would also like to beta test one of their Hoodies :D

What is the 'Bitwig' orange box on the desk?..Just an orange hard drive with a Bitwig sticker on it ?

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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by heavensdaw » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:43 am

dnbhallifax wrote:
It's really not just as simple as a company "stealing" another company's intellectual property, developing it and selling it.... A company files patents for their particular "unique" features. Live probably has a patent for their version of the clip launcher. Live however almost certainly does not have a patent on their timeline editor. They probably have many of the sub features and particular parts of the gui in their timeline patented but as a whole it's just a re-iteration of any other DAWs timeline. Another example would be Logic, they most certainly have a patent on Flextime editing (but also not a timeline …)

So..... I noticed Bitwig's scene launcher runs vertically instead of horizontally. It's quite possible that this discrepancy wasn't specified in Ableton's patent. (Who knows, maybe Bitwig even licensed some features of their clip launcher from Live. Doubtful, but software companies do license their technology all the time.) The point is, if Live's patent specifies a horizontal scene launcher that exists on a separate tab, then Bitwig legally has every right to patent a vertical one that exists next to the timeline. Yeah, maybe it's unoriginal, but that's how technology evolves, It builds off of pre-existing technology. Live is just a re-iteration of all DAWs that came before it, and aside from the clip launcher, it's really not all that unique.

Which leads me to people being all up in arms about Bitwig ripping off Live. The clip launcher yeah, it's obvioulsy the same concept... but EVERYTHING else in Live is the same old re-hashed shit you see in any other DAW. Getting up in arms over Ableton finally having some truly close competition after a decade of having their own little corner in the DAW market is laughable. Most companies with an innovative idea maybe get a year before everyone else starts playing in their sandbox and borrowing their ideas. A decade is a damn good run .... I personally thought 9 was their weakest release to date. Nothing really new, no real workflow improvements. Direct competition is GOOD for Ableton. it will most likely force them to step up their game and start to create new features and make some long overdo improvements, which is good for anyone who uses Live.

Anyway, here's another pretty interesting video from NAMM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqQhgbJSpmI
Well put sir.. Bitwig is loooking goood!! :)

Hd

d.reamonn
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by d.reamonn » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:20 am

SuburbanThug wrote:
d.reamonn wrote:
SuburbanThug wrote:Here in the U.S. a company that isn't essentially stealing from their employees based on the product of their labor versus what they are paid is a rare and celebrated occurrence.
I'd appreciate if you could expand on this. I think it's a really interesting concept and merits discussion.
According to some schools of thought corporations have become authoritarian in nature, basically enslaving the majority through owning the means of production. There was a brief time in the late 1800's when some economists proposed that there was a moral obligation to pay workers based on productivity but it found little popularity. Wal-Mart can be made an extreme example where the productivity of the workers allows the corporation to profit massively but pays such small wages to the workers that the taxpayer essentially subsidizes Wal-Mart by way of paying into welfare programs that their employees must use in order to survive (food stamps, etc.) Wal-Mart is not obligated to pay it's workers based on the profit they produce since the worker does not own the means of production. This is why factories are occasionally seized by unions or "fall victim" to lockouts as the workers take control of the means of production in an attempt to receive a fair wage based on the fruit of their labor.

The U.S. has recently moved from a free market capitalist society to a dominant capital market society although some would argue that corporations unfair advantage in their ability to lobby lawmakers has made us a dominant capital market for some time now. In a dominant capital market lawmakers are allowed to profit from the laws they pass ensuring the dominance of those already in control of the means of production. Squashing competition before it can begin. Certain predatory lending practices were made legal for banking institutions in the 90's leading to the downfall of the independent business in the early 2000's. This dominant capital market is part of what Occupy Wall Street was battling primarily when it began but their message was almost immediately convoluted during public meetings in which minorities were allowed to block resolutions and the focus went from making demands that certain laws ensuring a dominant capital market be repealed to a more open ended platform which sought no answer to any demands.

Certain corporations, such as Costco, are celebrated for their willingness to "treat the employees right" by paying them fair wages and benefits. Currently there is little to no regulation of business in the U.S. that isn't lobbied against by those with the money to do so and there is no assurance that workers will be paid fairly and legislation is being passed day to day to weaken unions. So, according to some schools of thought, we live in wage slavery.
Forgive my ignorance, but it seems like you're comparing slavery (the state of being legally owned by someone) to signing a contract and then bitching about it. If you're not happy with your job then quit. If you can't find another job, then I guess you should have stayed in school and taken hispanic-studies-or-whatever, which, you know, guarantees you a job nine times out of ten. But if you apply for a job, get the interview, impress you future boss (with or without performing fellatio/muff-chomping), read you contract, sign your contract, and then start turning up for work on a daily basis... to then go "'ang on mate, all these production methods should are belong to us", well then you're a douche.

Marx was a condescending little shit, whose entire philosophy can be summed up to "people aren't smart enough to take care of themselves". Git.
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SuburbanThug
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by SuburbanThug » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:00 am

d.reamonn wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but it seems like you're comparing slavery (the state of being legally owned by someone) to signing a contract and then bitching about it. If you're not happy with your job then quit. If you can't find another job, then I guess you should have stayed in school and taken hispanic-studies-or-whatever, which, you know, guarantees you a job nine times out of ten. But if you apply for a job, get the interview, impress you future boss (with or without performing fellatio/muff-chomping), read you contract, sign your contract, and then start turning up for work on a daily basis... to then go "'ang on mate, all these production methods should are belong to us", well then you're a douche.

Marx was a condescending little shit, whose entire philosophy can be summed up to "people aren't smart enough to take care of themselves". Git.
You are forgiven. :lol:
Nah, but seriously. If you think that the majority of people in the world have some kind of actual choice in where they work and have some kind of equal opportunity to gain education then you live in a much nicer place than me (I live in Detroit.) And if you think that the head CEO of Wal-Mart making 16,000 dollars an hour while paying his full time employees 7 dollars an hour and forcing the taxpayer to subsidize his payroll is somehow morally defensible I doubt there's even any common ground for us to have a sensible conversation about how I really feel. There was actually a time when mainstream economists spoke out against this kind of immorality in business practice, shortly before the Federal Reserve was allowed to mint our money and the world that we've been taught exists basically perished being replaced with a facade resembling that world hiding the reality of Bankers Running Every Damn Part Of Your Existence.

In my country (and possibly your own [the Bank of Switzerland?]) the money is minted by a private banking organization, The Federal Reserve. It's basically those folks that control how much money we're going to make, not us. I'm not a slave. But I have at times been a wage slave meaning that to quit my job I would be risking my life and if I were to keep it I'd still be looked upon as a lower functioning human being and barely able to take care of my own self let alone a family. Yet my employer needed me in order to maintain his profits so why should I bear this stigma and fear for the quality of my life? If the minimum wage in this country had been increased for inflation it would be three times higher than it is now and people earning it would still be living with their heads just above the poverty line. Personally I would love to see the kind of socialist utopia depicted in, say, Star Trek but would really settle for free market capitalism and democracy which were pretty much completely destroyed by 2002 and replaced with a dominant capital market based on military industry and banking.

I like your music by the way.

Wage Slavery on Wikipedia--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

1 more thing: I am super excited to try out Bitwig. I didn't think another video would do anything for me but that Musikmesse one is really doing it for me.

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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Valiumdupeuple » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:51 am

Some simple facts:
Laws are made by people who have the power and the money (money generally stolen by exploiting people, wars, weapons...).
Laws are differents for them, they protect them and ensure them more and more profit and power. This also ensures that the power is transmitted to the same families generations through generations.
Can you honestly deny that??? Is that democracy???
No IT IS not, and it can't be, ever.
And thus, believing anyone has ever experiencing living in a democracy is completely stupid. But that's how we're all raised. And we do really think we're in democracies "but, ok everything is not perfect but..." . Of course everything is not perfect, but hey "Equality" !!! For fuck sake, what's complicated in understanding that until there's no equality, there's no possible democracy.
Today's slavery is very sophisticated, we generally love it so much that we are prompt to fight to keep it.

I give up. I'd really love to talk about this but my english sucks, and SuburbanThug is doing it well btw.

d.reamonn
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by d.reamonn » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:31 pm

You spin jolly yarn. Permit me to mock you gingerly in my usual passive/aggressive manner :)
SuburbanThug wrote: Nah, but seriously. If you think that the majority of people in the world have some kind of actual choice in where they work and have some kind of equal opportunity to gain education then you live in a much nicer place than me (I live in Detroit.)
This is a stereotypical Marxist bait-and-switch. We were talking about Wal-Mart employees, not "the majority of people in the world". If you wish to rephrase your comment in a way that is not intellectually dishonest, you may. That's one.
SuburbanThug wrote:And if you think that the head CEO of Wal-Mart making 16,000 dollars an hour while paying his full time employees 7 dollars an hour and forcing the taxpayer to subsidize his payroll is somehow morally defensible I doubt there's even any common ground for us to have a sensible conversation about how I really feel.
Ah yes, another Marxist stereotype. Where logic fails, use feelings, we must. The points I raised in my previous post do not concern "unjust" wage-gaps, but rather the Marxist notion that the term "slavery" should be applied to those who are clearly free, albeit poor. The use of the word slavery is just another appeal to emotions. That's two.
SuburbanThug wrote:There was actually a time when mainstream economists spoke out against this kind of immorality in business practice.
There was also a time when blacks were genuine slaves and the Targaryens ruled Middle-Earth. (Two-and-a-half).
SuburbanThug wrote:In my country (and possibly your own [the Bank of Switzerland?]) the money is minted by a private banking organization, The Federal Reserve.
Indeed. In my village, we call this institution la BNS, or Banque National Suisse. It's primary mandate includes pepperminting candy-corns and hoarding Nazi gold. (Random nonsense).
SuburbanThug wrote: It's basically those folks that control how much money we're going to make, not us. I'm not a slave. But I have at times been a wage slave meaning that to quit my job I would be risking my life and if I were to keep it I'd still be looked upon as a lower functioning human being and barely able to take care of my own self let alone a family.
I understand your plight, as I also have to work for a living. Back in the Targaryen days, of course, nobody had to work to survive. Food simply was and everybody was happy. That's three.
SuburbanThug wrote:Yet my employer needed me in order to maintain his profits so why should I bear this stigma and fear for the quality of my life? If the minimum wage in this country had been increased for inflation it would be three times higher than it is now and people earning it would still be living with their heads just above the poverty line.
And yet you signed that contract. It sounds like you should take up your complaint with the party responsible for the inflation (the Fed), rather than the company that was kind enough to offer you a job and keep you from starvation. Four.
SuburbanThug wrote:Personally I would love to see the kind of socialist utopia depicted in, say, Star Trek...
Adam Smith would agree with you. If I recall my economics lessons correctly, he theorised that "^ this, plus I'd do Spock". Point five.
SuburbanThug wrote:...but would really settle for free market capitalism and democracy which were pretty much completely destroyed by 2002 and replaced with a dominant capital market based on military industry and banking.
Three possibilities, either you haven't understood what is meant by "free market capitalism", or you haven't understood what is meant by "democracy", or you are trolling. Democracy is by definition the destruction of the free market, as a market governed by the *cough* right to vote can no longer function freely. Six. And that's a big one.
SuburbanThug wrote:I like your music by the way.
Appreciated, thank you.
https://soundcloud.com/maybe-logic

"I wanted to not like your [music], but it's actually pretty awesome. Banana hammock."
- eddiex

d.reamonn
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by d.reamonn » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:32 pm

Valiumdupeuple wrote:Some simple facts:
Laws are made by people who have the power and the money (money generally stolen by exploiting people, wars, weapons...).
Laws are differents for them, they protect them and ensure them more and more profit and power. This also ensures that the power is transmitted to the same families generations through generations.
Can you honestly deny that??? Is that democracy???
No IT IS not, and it can't be, ever.
And thus, believing anyone has ever experiencing living in a democracy is completely stupid. But that's how we're all raised. And we do really think we're in democracies "but, ok everything is not perfect but..." . Of course everything is not perfect, but hey "Equality" !!! For fuck sake, what's complicated in understanding that until there's no equality, there's no possible democracy.
Today's slavery is very sophisticated, we generally love it so much that we are prompt to fight to keep it.

I give up. I'd really love to talk about this but my english sucks, and SuburbanThug is doing it well btw.
J'attendrais jamais d'un français une analyse autre que "trop d'boulot, quoi". Je poursuivrais bien cette discussion avec toi, mais moi pas bien cause Japonais.

:x
https://soundcloud.com/maybe-logic

"I wanted to not like your [music], but it's actually pretty awesome. Banana hammock."
- eddiex

donmich
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by donmich » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:49 pm

Heavensdaw,
I'm not "up in arms", Im attracted to, yet conflicted about Bitwig. It is not that some random company dared to compete with the session mode that bugs me, its that ableton employees with years of deep access to internal information and development hurdles/roadmaps did. And not only the clip mode. They have targeted Lives other features like the racks, specifically promoted clip automation (prior to Live 9) knowing it was a major gripe from Live users and even seem to be copying M4L integration with their own spin. Its like they took every feature request that specifically live users ever put forward and built the product based on that (and even made updated but derrivative GUI assets).
As I say, they are free to do so. It just seems to me, from admittedly surface appearances, a bit sleazy.

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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by mdk » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:53 pm

donmich wrote:Its like they took every feature request that specifically live users ever put forward and built the product based on that
thank fuck for that.
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by heavensdaw » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:15 pm

donmich wrote:Heavensdaw,
I'm not "up in arms", Im attracted to, yet conflicted about Bitwig. It is not that some random company dared to compete with the session mode that bugs me, its that ableton employees with years of deep access to internal information and development hurdles/roadmaps did. And not only the clip mode. They have targeted Lives other features like the racks, specifically promoted clip automation (prior to Live 9) knowing it was a major gripe from Live users and even seem to be copying M4L integration with their own spin. Its like they took every feature request that specifically live users ever put forward and built the product based on that (and even made updated but derrivative GUI assets).
As I say, they are free to do so. It just seems to me, from admittedly surface appearances, a bit sleazy.
I hear ya man.. But listen.. Regarding the Live users requests..Ableton could have done that too.. They didn't..
I feel like I have supported them both in financial terms and as a enthusiast of the product.. through all of the whole Live 8 fiasco and before.. I (like many others) have bought ALL Ableton products.. not only because of my allegiance to Ableton but also I because I dig the basic Live concept.. However.. I now feel I have been 'let down' by Ableton both as a Live user and a loyal customer. Ie.. the false marketing of Live 8 (share), the whole Live 8 instability issues, the Max 4 Live extra (paid for) add on (now freely given as a sweetener in Suite9).. The zero further implementation of the APC 40/20 .. The 1 week offer to upgrade at what I consider an overly hiked 'discount' price to the Live 9 upgrade itself.. which imo is pretty lame an upgrade anyway... So yes Bitwig does look very tempting in my eyes... put it this way.. I never felt like I was being 'shafted' for my loyalty before as I do now.. And maybe.. those employees felt/feel the same..

Hd

donmich
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by donmich » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:00 pm

heavensdaw wrote:
donmich wrote:Heavensdaw,
I'm not "up in arms", Im attracted to, yet conflicted about Bitwig. It is not that some random company dared to compete with the session mode that bugs me, its that ableton employees with years of deep access to internal information and development hurdles/roadmaps did. And not only the clip mode. They have targeted Lives other features like the racks, specifically promoted clip automation (prior to Live 9) knowing it was a major gripe from Live users and even seem to be copying M4L integration with their own spin. Its like they took every feature request that specifically live users ever put forward and built the product based on that (and even made updated but derrivative GUI assets).
As I say, they are free to do so. It just seems to me, from admittedly surface appearances, a bit sleazy.
I hear ya man.. But listen.. Regarding the Live users requests..Ableton could have done that too.. They didn't..
I feel like I have supported them both in financial terms and as a enthusiast of the product.. through all of the whole Live 8 fiasco and before.. I (like many others) have bought ALL Ableton products.. not only because of my allegiance to Ableton but also I because I dig the basic Live concept.. However.. I now feel I have been 'let down' by Ableton both as a Live user and a loyal customer. Ie.. the false marketing of Live 8 (share), the whole Live 8 instability issues, the Max 4 Live extra (paid for) add on (now freely given as a sweetener in Suite9).. The zero further implementation of the APC 40/20 .. The 1 week offer to upgrade at what I consider an overly hiked 'discount' price to the Live 9 upgrade itself.. which imo is pretty lame an upgrade anyway... So yes Bitwig does look very tempting in my eyes... put it this way.. I never felt like I was being 'shafted' for my loyalty before as I do now.. And maybe.. those employees felt/feel the same..

Hd
Fair enough indeed.
I worked for a company that shall remain nameless thatbwas well known for making the best and most forward thinking doodahs in their class. There was a guy who worked there who was originally a chef but was groomed and gradually worked his way up to a VP position. He was a very disarming and likeable guy. People trusted him with sensitive information. He had access to everything. He worked hard. He could even be described as almost irreplaceable. One day he suddenly announced that he was moving to our fiercest competitor. We tried to be cool. We threw him a touching going away party on a rented boat. Everybody promised to stay in touch.
What we didnt know is that he had taken our 3 year road map, our vendor and cost information, information about our dealers - who was disgruntled, who was on the edge, who were bad payers and great payers, logisics info and contacts, everything, and handed it to our nemesis on a silver platter in exchange for a great position with them. They were a much bigger and more diversified conpany so his room to grow was greater there.
Anyway, we didnt know he had done this enemy data dump until said competitor launched a whole line of doodahs based exactly on ours. Right down to cutting edge boutique 3rd party tech we basically funded the R&D on. Like an army of ninjas they surgically targeted and uprooted our most strategic and sensitive accounts. And they did this for 3 years based on our roadmap.

Because they were bigger with greater inroads into "foreign" markets they had a greater economy of scale advantage and were able to deliver what was essentially our products at the same quality but cheaper. Of course the end users made fist pumps and migrated with relish. It almost killed us. It took more than 3 years to recover.

We were slightly pricey as we had to build the cost of R&D into our pricing, had some QC issues and so on but until then we had led the way. We couldnt give everything everyone wanted. We were a business and had to make a profit to stay in business. We were married to certain architectures, modules, tooling and so on because it takes time to recoup on that. We were a publicly traded company and had shareholders to appease. We had manufacturing delays from time to time. We had hundreds of employees who had spent most of their adult life with us. But every company pretty much has to deal with this. And no matter what splashy entrance or campaign based on promises of cutting edge tech and cheap prices a company makes, business forces always catch up, and the new game becomes the old game soon enough, with their own weak spots and wicked problems etc.

Anyway, to this day when I think about that I cringe, even though I dont work there anymore and cant help but be reminded of it with this Bitwig thing. The customer benefits for now, but there is always the chance (and possibly even likelihood) that what will happen is Ableton will be further weakened and Bitwig will strain under the growth and drop the ball and in the end we the users end up with two weakened DAWs.

I could be way off, and Im obviously biased. But the other side of all this is I get your point and even feel the same way as you. It may also be the case that Ableton has what I earlier called a "dark side" and they totally had this coming. We'll just have to see.
Last edited by donmich on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Dalmu
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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by Dalmu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:19 pm

so... when's it coming out?

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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by re:dream » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:16 pm

any time now.

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Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

Post by heavensdaw » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:31 pm

Thanks Don.. appreciated pal.. Like you say we have to wait and see what occurs..
I too 'feel' for Ableton from a 'loyalty' perspective..
But let's be honest here, sentimentality and a good business acumen rarely go hand in hand!
Right now Bitwig offers something that Live doesn't, a fresh approach to an old conundrum :)

Hd

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