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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
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Location: U.S.
headquest wrote:
William wrote:
Wow this is just Live with the features everyone's been asking for lol


...but with a heck of a lot of features from Live are missing here, let's be honest ;)

Live 8 is a mature product, with plenty of third party support and a huge international user base ranging from bedroom musos to international superstars....

Bitwig does look like an upstart challenger that has a few nice tricks, but a huge amount of ground to catch up, and not a lot here that's really so innovative....

how can you tell anything is missing from screen shots?

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8926
For a 1.0 release though with a number of features that have been requested though, it's a damn good start.
And I'm sure they have a lot less other things to worry about than Ableton so they can focus on programming at a much quicker pace.

Even though it's all speculation, it's exciting, and I'm leaning more on thinking that the quality won't be crap.

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Last edited by regretfullySaid on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:52 pm
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Location: Aotearoa New Zealand
will i be able to open my live sessions in Bitwig, and visa-versa..?

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
Posts: 3297
Location: U.S.
yeah i want to try this now!

NOW!!!! NOW!!!!! NOW!!! NOW!!!!! NOW!!! NOW!!!! NOW!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 1566
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
daviec75 wrote:
As much as this does indeed look very exciting (a browser with meta data would make my life a LOT easier), have to say I'm a wee bit saddened by the reaction on here. So many people seem to be sounding the death knell for Live - the software has played a massive role in the music and careers of so many of us. Isn't there a touch more loyalty among this community for Live? Would people genuinely celebrate if Bitwig put Ableton out of business (which isn't as far fetched as it might seem)?



You're just being much too dramatic. People are excited because it's Ableton's first -true- competition in the sense of duplicating very specific functionality, and then adding to it. So it's very interesting and exciting from the user standpoint of seeing how the two programs take each other on, head-to-head. Nobody's sounding a Death Knell. And as for loyalty, c'mon, that's silly. We're just tech-heads following the latest business developments...what, were supposed to avoid discussing this because we are ableton fanboys??

Then again, if DAW development is what saddens you, you're life is probably pretty good :lol:

-M

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:18 pm
Posts: 351
daviec75 wrote:
Let's not forget that Ableton re-wrote the book on DAW workflow. From what we can see of Bitwig it doesn't exactly scream innovation, which makes me wonder how about the creativity of the people behind it. In fact it's similarity (not just session view but device chains scrolling along the foot of the screen, which is key aspect of the Live interface) just goes to show how much Live has gotten right. Maybe when we get to use and hear Bigwig we'll realise there are other aspects of Live that we've started to take for granted.


THIS. Definitely.

That was the first thing I also thought.
Ableton came up with all sorts of radical and innovative ideas to make live the way it is now.
They keep building on the program and they keep searching on how to make it better, more innovative (implementation of M4L or the Bridge anyone?) and more fun to use.
Okay maybe not all of these things worked out perfect (like the sharing thing) but at least they try to be innovative and forward thinking (mostly with success).

If Bitwig Studio is all these programmers can come up with in 2 years, I'm afraid I'll pass.
A shameless rip-off of almost every device live has and a GUI that they didn't need to invent.
If they need 2 years for only this, I'm not going to wait till the first bugs or updates will be brought up.
Think about it, they didn't need to invent anything right now so that also makes me wonder about the teams creativity and innovative ideas.
And we still don't know anything about the stability, macro's, midi and audio routing, cpu impact, implementation/problems with 3rd party plugins, audio editing tools and so on.
Sure, it already has some features live should have. But I'm sure Live9 will be released soon with lot's of cool enhancements.
Imho many people here are just excited because of the new color scheme.

Don't get me wrong, I also think competition is good but I can't bring up much respect for people who just build on other ideas instead of making their own.
edit: okay maybe a bit too harsh: no respect for just using ideas and not doing anything with it. Just repeating without innovating or improving these ideas.
Especially if those people where ex-Ableton employees, I would think they would come up with a DAW that moves a whole step forward instead of just hovering over the same place.

I must admit I can also agree with this:
Ryanmf wrote:
  1. Bitwig sucks, no meaningful impact on Live or Live users. Short term net benefit: neutral. Long term net benefit: potentially negative, if Ableton takes the failure of its most notable competitor to date as an opportunity to rest on their laurels.
  2. Bitwig is good, draws some users away from Live, and lights a fire under Ableton's ass to improve. Both products are better as a result. Customers have more choice, market pressures facilitate product growth while driving prices down. Short term net benefit: positive for Bitwig users. Long term net benefit: positive for everyone.
  3. Bitwig is so fucking awesome that it puts Live out of business (I don't foresee this as even semi-plausible, but fuck it). Short term net benefit: Positive. If it's that much better than Live, we're lucky it's being brought into existence. Long term net benefit: Neutral—right now there's one product like Live on the market: Live. In this scenario there will remain one product like live on the market: Bitwig.


ps LOL @ Tone Deft :lol:


Last edited by Sarrova-Q on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Posts: 3244
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX
Sarrova-Q wrote:
A shameless rip-off of almost every device live has and a GUI that they didn't need to invent.


I guess this is where I am kind of curious, are they ripping off, or using what they believe is rightfully their ideas too.

Starts to get weird.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8926
I think there's too much stress over originality. This is about FUNCTIONALITY. Historically there's a lot of people in all fields that didn't originate but just expanded and evolved what was already there, industry wise to the arts. Original is practically an illusion. Everything is influenced and is a by-product of influence, from your favorite book, album, architecture, movie, mind, etc.

Maybe there's a perception that it was Bitwigs intent to "steal" Live but I think of it more as in, "let's take all the things that we love and make it better". It's evolution.

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Last edited by regretfullySaid on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Posts: 3244
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX
shadx312 wrote:
I think there's too much stress over originality. This is about FUNCTIONALITY. Historically there's a lot of people in all fields that didn't originate but just expanded and evolved what was already there, industry wise to the arts. Original is practically an illusion. Everything is influenced and is a by-product of influence, from your favorite book, album, architecture, movie, mind, etc.

Maybe there's a perception that it was Bitwigs intent to "steal" Live but I think of it more as in, "let's take all the things that we love and make it better". It's evolution.


YEP.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:18 pm
Posts: 351
JuanSOLO wrote:
I guess this is where I am kind of curious, are they ripping off, or using what they believe is rightfully their ideas too.
Starts to get weird.


Yeah I see what you mean, but even IF they build on things they think are rightfully theirs I see no reason why not to improve stuff.
2 years for coming up with stuff you already invented years ago without any big changes or improvements?
I don't think this is a good sign for future development but let's hope I'm wrong.
Again, I would expect these ex-employees to come up with something radical different and forward thinking not just repeating what they did before.

shadx312 wrote:
I think there's too much stress over originality. This is about FUNCTIONALITY. Historically there's a lot of people in all fields that didn't originate but just expanded and evolved what was already there, industry wise to the arts. Original is practically an illusion. Everything is influenced and is a by-product of influence, from your favorite book, album, architecture, movie, mind, etc.

Maybe there's a perception that it was Bitwigs intent to "steal" Live but I think of it more as in, "let's take all the things that we love and make it better". It's evolution.


I have no problem with building upon good ideas, but for me it's all about the improvement and creativity.
I do understand you don't have to change what is already good, but I think you need to keep going forward and with an open mind for new ideas.


Last edited by Sarrova-Q on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:38 am
Posts: 3297
Location: U.S.
i just got a brilliant idea!

ok.. get ready!

a bit wig accult!!!

it will be based in utah of course.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Posts: 15710
Location: The Wild West
shadx312 wrote:
I think there's too much stress over originality. This is about FUNCTIONALITY. Historically there's a lot of people in all fields that didn't originate but just expanded and evolved what was already there, industry wise to the arts.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8926
Quote:
I do understand you don't have to change what is already good, but I think you need to keep going forward and with an open mind for new ideas.

I feel ya. I can understand being disappointed if you were waiting for something revolutionary only to find a clone. In this instance I think it's a great baby-step.

I think it would be cool if it could also be a vst and you could use it in Live, like EnergyXt or FL, but I doubt that's going to happen.

Bitwig has a lot to live up to as well. Since this is a straight up stand-off, people are going to be expect all the functionality that Live offers, from the minimal to the max, and they know it. It will be interesting to see what they decide is worth having a lack of for whatever reason in the long run, like say, curves :P

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:35 am
Posts: 2733
Location: Cydonia on the 4th Planet
shadx312 wrote:
I think it would be cool if it could also be a vst and you could use it in Live, like EnergyXt or FL, but I doubt that's going to happen.


It might end up being a Rewire slave and host eventually. Live is a Rewire slave and host.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta soon...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 7
Ryanmf wrote:
daviec75 wrote:
As much as this does indeed look very exciting (a browser with meta data would make my life a LOT easier), have to say I'm a wee bit saddened by the reaction on here. So many people seem to be sounding the death knell for Live - the software has played a massive role in the music and careers of so many of us. Isn't there a touch more loyalty among this community for Live? Would people genuinely celebrate if Bitwig put Ableton out of business (which isn't as far fetched as it might seem)?

Let's not forget that Ableton re-wrote the book on DAW workflow. From what we can see of Bitwig it doesn't exactly scream innovation, which makes me wonder how about the creativity of the people behind it. In fact it's similarity (not just session view but device chains scrolling along the foot of the screen, which is key aspect of the Live interface) just goes to show how much Live has gotten right. Maybe when we get to use and hear Bigwig we'll realise there are other aspects of Live that we've started to take for granted.

Progress is progress and competition is of course better for everyone. But maybe we should be careful what we wish for.

Anyway, I have a feeling we'll be seeing Live 9 next week and I for one hope it takes Ableton back into pole positon. I think they've earned it.


I love Live. I also love entrepreneurship. I feel no loyalty for firms just as they exhibit no loyalty towards me. I suppose in a way I have loyalty for products, so long as they continue to meet my needs.

I see three distinct possibilities.

  1. Bitwig sucks, no meaningful impact on Live or Live users. Short term net benefit: neutral. Long term net benefit: potentially negative, if Ableton takes the failure of its most notable competitor to date as an opportunity to rest on their laurels.
  2. Bitwig is good, draws some users away from Live, and lights a fire under Ableton's ass to improve. Both products are better as a result. Customers have more choice, market pressures facilitate product growth while driving prices down. Short term net benefit: positive for Bitwig users. Long term net benefit: positive for everyone.
  3. Bitwig is so fucking awesome that it puts Live out of business (I don't foresee this as even semi-plausible, but fuck it). Short term net benefit: Positive. If it's that much better than Live, we're lucky it's being brought into existence. Long term net benefit: Neutral—right now there's one product like Live on the market: Live. In this scenario there will remain one product like live on the market: Bitwig.


Great post, I agree with everything you say apart from the going out business bit. It's unlikely yes but not implausible longer term; taking this thread as an un-scientific poll, 90%+ of Live's user base sound like they're ready to switch, and Ableton have already had to fund 2+ years of a largely fixed cost base with no new release income.

As I said, BW is exciting and competition is good. If it knocks the socks off Live I'll be switching like everyone else. I guess I was just a little surprised that in 8-odd pages of posts on an Ableton forum, almost no one had acknowledged Ableton's track record of genuine innovation, or raised the question of whether reduced profits at Ableton would actually stifle R&D (I'm a capitalist at heart and agree that the competition will be good for Ableton and for us, but it's not as though they previously had a monopoly on the DAW market).

When BW setup in 2009 they said this: "Within the virtual environment of a computer anything is possible, yet on a fundamental level, the way music is created today with computers is still very similar to how hardware studios were used. With an entirely new approach, we want to take the next step in the evolution of the computer music studio and create the music software we always wanted to use ourselves."

If what we've seen today is their vision - 3 years on - of an entirely new approach (granted this is only version 1), then I'm still more excited to see what the genuine innovators at Ableton come up with next, rather than how BW turns out.


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