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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 9626
Location: Seattle
Angstrom wrote:
I would disagree that Ableton is following the path of making things easier (for everybody). I find that many things in Live 9 make working harder. I continue to work in Live 8 because I find that easier.

I find that Live 9 has a more constrained and defined idea of what a user wants, and how a user works. L9 focuses on strategies of a specific type of user, rather than making it easier for a many types of user.

If you conform to their idea of their users, you will not find L9 problematic. If you make music differently than that - you will find L9 more problematic than L8.

Yeah that's my one hope for Bitwig Studio, that it's geared a bit more towards performance and a flexible work environment.
Push is a great example of what you're talking about, but if you go to meet ups or be around other Live users you realize that most people have a 25 key controller if that, their whole market is so specifically geared towards bedroom beat makers that it makes sense for them to wire the whole program in that direction.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am
Posts: 1426
Quote:
L9 focuses on strategies of a specific type of user, rather than making it easier for a many types of user.


How so?

Or I guess more specifically, which types of users do you mean?


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:56 pm 

Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm
Posts: 518
SpeedKing wrote:
EDIT: Obviously I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't LOVE Ableton is childish, but I'm speaking more of the simpli.cissimus' of the world here.

...and that Edit is just a proof that the way you mentioned me shows that you're the one who's childish !

Had the impression to read a Kardashian tweet... :lol:

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No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 12590
agent314 wrote:
Quote:
L9 focuses on strategies of a specific type of user, rather than making it easier for a many types of user.


How so?

Or I guess more specifically, which types of users do you mean?


"In a gold rush, sell shovels"

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am
Posts: 1426
Quote:
"In a gold rush, sell shovels"


Are you talking about the updates to 9 in particular, or the Push functionality?

Also, very aptly put


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm
Posts: 64
Szuumm wrote:
dnbhallifax wrote:
An Ableton audio interface? Got one already


Where did you get an Ableton audio interface? I'd like to check that out.


Lol, no I mean that I already have an audio interface, and with 'push' it looks like Ableton's going to start developing branded hardware. Sorry for the confusion :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm
Posts: 64
simpli.cissimus wrote:
The new from ground up programmed software of Bitwig
is up to date and uses the latest technology to make use of today's processors.
Live's software isn't competitive in that way and full of bugs.
I can run the same amount of VST's in StudioOne at half CPU !


Definitely, Studio One runs sooo much faster and lighter than Live! And once you bookmark your folders, their browser's miles better than Live 9's by miles :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm
Posts: 64
beatz01 wrote:
... the pathetic Steve Jobs wannabe presentation and so on, it all sreams:

"We want to be Apple!"



Yeah, I think they spent more time developing that horrid seminar than they did developing Live 9.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:12 am
Posts: 911
beatz01 wrote:
My point was that it looks as if Ableton want a bigger share of the prosumer/consumer market and hence the positioning in the more lifestyle/fun gadgets/"everything is so easy"(although it's not) category.I'm not saying L9 IS easier than L8 or anything, i'm talking about a shift in their MARKETING.


one of the biggest problems of our time. marketing is the enemy. I admire RME for being such a reliable, solid but also damn successful company. Furthermore for me it's the best buying experience to buy their gear because I know it's not a 50% discount event around the corner and the gear works near to perfection (at least for me).


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 12590
agent314 wrote:
Quote:
"In a gold rush, sell shovels"


Are you talking about the updates to 9 in particular, or the Push functionality?

Also, very aptly put


I would say that for both products. When they considered what was important to include and what their prospective purchasers might value, it seems that things like " accessing and previewing partner content" is top of the list, while "managing existing/user content" wasn't actually on the list.


The new browser didn't prioritise user content, user organisation methods, user creative requirements and circumstances. Instead it prioritised partner content, partner organisation methods, partner requirements.
Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.

Of all of our various working methods, situations, musics, organisation methods. Whose does this conform to?
Or do we conform to it?

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 9626
Location: Seattle
Angstrom nails it again.

Push is an absolute perfect example of this.
I saw a demo of it locally and it's lovely, really quite compelling,
and has almost zero place in my workflow. I came out of the demo thinking I'm gonna buy that now!
Getting home and looking at my set up, I'm not that inclined to give up a regular keyboard go live performance, I don't need to step sequence live, and the Launchpad was a whopping $100. the main advantage of push for me would be VST loading,. It asks not what it can do for your workflow but what you can do with it's workflow.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am
Posts: 1426
Quote:
I would say that for both products. When they considered what was important to include and what their prospective purchasers might value, it seems that things like " accessing and previewing partner content" is top of the list, while "managing existing/user content" wasn't actually on the list.


The new browser didn't prioritise user content, user organisation methods, user creative requirements and circumstances. Instead it prioritised partner content, partner organisation methods, partner requirements.
Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.

Of all of our various working methods, situations, musics, organisation methods. Whose does this conform to?
Or do we conform to it?


Very interesting observation. I wonder to what extent this was an issue of fiscal prudence/necessity (i.e. leverage an incidental income stream rather than rely on the big bang at new release time) vs. an effort to push Ableton as a brand for sound resources rather than strictly the DAW tool

However:
Quote:
Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.


Where do you mean? I don't have any Other folders in my browser?


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Posts: 12982
Location: The Wild West
^ 8O that means Ableton doesn't give a shit about you!




they dismiss you like no Other.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:18 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am
Posts: 1426
Thinking about my analogy earlier, maybe it could be the other way around

Maybe the Bitwig guys who left Ableton are the ones with the real original idea, and it's their baby and a genuine expression of their desires, the way Live used to be for them.

Maybe 9 will become the app that lost vision, because it went with the dudes to Bitwig

We shall see

All I know is, for my purposes, Live 9 is great and it's fortunate that I love using it.
Looking forward to trying Bitwig, but until I get my hands on it, I'm glad to have what I've got.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:06 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm
Posts: 64
agent314 wrote:
Thinking about my analogy earlier, maybe it could be the other way around

Maybe the Bitwig guys who left Ableton are the ones with the real original idea, and it's their baby and a genuine expression of their desires, the way Live used to be for them.

Maybe 9 will become the app that lost vision, because it went with the dudes to Bitwig...



That's sort of my point. If these guys really jumped ship to start Bitwig, i would wager to say that it's because they were probably being stifled by development priorities that shifted toward developing "strategically designed" bullshit like the new browser (as so elegantly broken down by Angstrom) and no interest in new ideas that might actually lead to anything innovative or practical.

I worked for 2 years for an audio app company that was developing an Ipad remixing app and they literally spent weeks upon weeks strategizing how the browser would work in order to encourage the user to buy, or use "partner" content; and essentially put user content as low as possible on the priority list without somehow letting the user feel as if they weren't important. The developers were f-ing miserable because no one was really all that interested in any ideas that were actually useful. It always came back to design and brand over functionality. Needless to say they failed miserably and all the programmers walked...

But the point here is this, isn't there an obvious point that these marketing retards always miss?
If you don't have users then you don't have customers... It's not fucking rocket science.


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