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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:27 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:17 am
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Ableton has something like 1.7 mill customers. The consept was built by Gerhart (CEO) and Robert Henke. Before Live they first made a test version in Max Msp.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:41 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 11636
Location: MacAbleton Towers, sunny Manchester.
dnbhallifax wrote:
agent314 wrote:
Thinking about my analogy earlier, maybe it could be the other way around

Maybe the Bitwig guys who left Ableton are the ones with the real original idea, and it's their baby and a genuine expression of their desires, the way Live used to be for them.

Maybe 9 will become the app that lost vision, because it went with the dudes to Bitwig...



That's sort of my point. If these guys really jumped ship to start Bitwig, i would wager to say that it's because they were probably being stifled by development priorities that shifted toward developing "strategically designed" bullshit like the new browser (as so elegantly broken down by Angstrom) and no interest in new ideas that might actually lead to anything innovative or practical.

I worked for 2 years for an audio app company that was developing an Ipad remixing app and they literally spent weeks upon weeks strategizing how the browser would work in order to encourage the user to buy, or use "partner" content; and essentially put user content as low as possible on the priority list without somehow letting the user feel as if they weren't important. The developers were f-ing miserable because no one was really all that interested in any ideas that were actually useful. It always came back to design and brand over functionality. Needless to say they failed miserably and all the programmers walked...

But the point here is this, isn't there an obvious point that these marketing retards always miss?
If you don't have users then you don't have customers... It's not fucking rocket science.


It's not rocket science, it's capitalism. The rocket scientists moved into finance after the cold war ended. Not sayin it was a particularly successful transition or owt.

In the modern world, marketing is more important than the actual product. And the customer is not important whatsoever. Generally speaking. Not saying Ableton are like that, Ableton is a small company started by enthusiasts.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:26 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:51 pm
Posts: 167
Location: North Carolina, USA
simpli.cissimus wrote:
SpeedKing wrote:
EDIT: Obviously I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't LOVE Ableton is childish, but I'm speaking more of the simpli.cissimus' of the world here.

...and that Edit is just a proof that the way you mentioned me shows that you're the one who's childish !

Had the impression to read a Kardashian tweet... :lol:


No, the edit was proof that you stood out in my mind as probably the most consistently childish.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:07 pm 

Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm
Posts: 518
agent314 wrote:
Thinking about my analogy earlier, maybe it could be the other way around

Maybe the Bitwig guys who left Ableton are the ones with the real original idea, and it's their baby and a genuine expression of their desires, the way Live used to be for them.

Maybe 9 will become the app that lost vision, because it went with the dudes to Bitwig

We shall see

All I know is, for my purposes, Live 9 is great and it's fortunate that I love using it.
Looking forward to trying Bitwig, but until I get my hands on it, I'm glad to have what I've got.

To underline how you nailed it, lets look at the new stuff in Live9

EQ8 improved - as much as I read it was the developer of Glue who improved it !
(how embarrassing this is... :oops: )

Glue itself - made by third party !
MAX devices - also made by third party
Push - made by third party

What's left ?
A browser made for Push support, some face lift,
a imitation of Melodyne and some sloppy working curves

Must have been three hard working years for Ableton programmers. :lol:



Looking at Bitwig, I could add more then 10 innovations(already done in many post's)
including that all what Live offers is already in Bitwig too.

Bitwig is also fresh from start programmed and has 64bit really working,
where Ableton them self not recommending it(if I'm right)

All these are facts and not made up !

Bitwig developers were the ones with the ideas, but I think some managers wanted to
leave the innovative side and "Push" Live to a money maker.
(Including a Apple-Like presentation ala Steve Jobs(R.I.P.)
Live 9 is build for that and the price tags shows it.

I don't expect any serious improvements and new functions until Live 10.
Depends if they find more third part programmers to join the big "Live-Boat". :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am
Posts: 1426
Quote:
Must have been three hard working years for Ableton programmers.


I'm inclined to think there have been a lot of structural, behind-the-scenes code changes, which could explain the lack of whizbang-wow-look-at-that features in 9, and why there was so much third-party development from Cytomic Andy/the Max people/etc.

Session view automation alone was supposed to require a substantial reconfiguration of a lot of Live's internals, not to mention releasing an upgrade to 64-bit mid-version.

Quote:
Bitwig is also fresh from start programmed and has 64bit really working,
where Ableton them self not recommending it


Starting from a fresh code base can be a blessing and a curse though. 10 years of development, you're going to run into and address a lot of bugs related to real-world use issues (hardware device/driver support, VST issues, etc) that you only find when you have thousands and thousand of actual users using your program. But you're also constrained to legacy code, which can limit flexibility.

To say that Ableton is "not recommending" 64-bit mischaracterizes what they said, I think. Their stance is basically "use 64-bit if you need it, know that there are still some items that aren't fully compatible yet, but if you're not running into memory issues now, there's no reason to use 64-bit" which isn't the same as "it's crap, use at your own risk".


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 443
They've maintained the same policy since pre-64 bit. The thought that MOST people don't need it as MOST systems out there cap out at 4gb of ram off the shelf. Its only the power users who are adding more and want to take advantage of it. Chances are this is a very small percentage of live users as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:18 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Posts: 3127
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX
agent314 wrote:
I'm inclined to think there have been a lot of structural, behind-the-scenes code changes, which could explain the lack of whizbang-wow-look-at-that features in 9,


I'm skeptical.
In regards to amazing feature requests, I have seen quite a few responses from Abelton employees that sound as if the vision is hitting a wall.
Responses like
"Why would you want to do that?"
"How would that work in practical use?"
"Have you tried this M4L device?" (which dosent apply to requested feature)
etc etc

It took forever to get Session Automation recording into clips, now that its there cool, but there is still no option to snapshot device parameters per clip.
Ableton idea of presets is hotswapping, but this is extreamly crude in a Live performance considering hardware has been recalling parameter snapshots since the 80's, via program change.

Live's CPU meter still makes zero since, anything over %50 is wack.
From what I understand through responses, it has something to do with Live not really working correctly with multiple cores.

It's things like that which make me wonder if the lack of wiz bang is simply stubbornness.


If the bitwig guys had a big influence on DrumRacks, Racks, GroupTracks, in L7 I can imagine their software will be moving forward in ways Ableton refuses too.

In the NAMM videos, one of the guys from bitwig sounds very sincere about his love for Live, and at the same time you since his excitement about pushing those ideas to the next level.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:31 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm
Posts: 64
funken wrote:

It's not rocket science, it's capitalism. The rocket scientists moved into finance after the cold war ended. Not sayin it was a particularly successful transition or owt.

In the modern world, marketing is more important than the actual product. And the customer is not important whatsoever. Generally speaking. Not saying Ableton are like that, Ableton is a small company started by enthusiasts.


Well some companies still do manage to be great at marketing and still continue to release software that is always at the front of the pack (WHICH I DO think Live did all the way through version 8....)

9 however I feel is a joke, and illustrates a new phase where user functionality looks to be at the bottom of the priority list.

NI, as I mentioned is brilliant on all fronts. Their marketing is slick and simplified to win over everyone from professionals to novices, but no matter what, just about everything they put out is really well designed and the development completely thought through before releasing.
They have everyone from the bedroom dj to the career film and television composer covered with everything from Traktor to Kontakt. They even have some of the best guitar amp emulation to cover guitarists. IMO they really don't miss many marks, they market well, but listen and keep their users happy. Seems to me like they do a great job of keeping their overlords happy while keeping in perspective the fact that without their users they have nothing; and understand that as you said - IT IS CAPITOLISM - and therefore if you're smart about business - you realize that happy users only lead to a bigger market share when you're playing in pond as small as the DAW community.

I personally think live failed monumentally with 9 - at least so far... And I just don't see any of the 'enthusiam' you mention shining through anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:45 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 443
I think where 9failed so far wasn't in what it delivered...but more in what it released. So far for many its been buggy and in some aspect unusable. We knew the new features going in and many of us were stoked. But to release software for that kinda dough where everyone who purchases is essentially a beta tester is problematic...and unfortunately is a growing trend in many software markets.


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am
Posts: 1420
dnbhallifax wrote:
NI, as I mentioned is brilliant on all fronts. Their marketing is slick and simplified to win over everyone from professionals to novices, but no matter what, just about everything they put out is really well designed and the development completely thought through before releasing.
They have everyone from the bedroom dj to the career film and television composer covered with everything from Traktor to Kontakt. They even have some of the best guitar amp emulation to cover guitarists. IMO they really don't miss many marks, they market well, but listen and keep their users happy. Seems to me like they do a great job of keeping their overlords happy while keeping in perspective the fact that without their users they have nothing; and understand that as you said - IT IS CAPITOLISM - and therefore if you're smart about business - you realize that happy users only lead to a bigger market share when you're playing in pond as small as the DAW community.

I personally think live failed monumentally with 9 - at least so far... And I just don't see any of the 'enthusiam' you mention shining through anywhere.

Who would think the company has volunteer for their official forum to moderate and answer users' question good? As for ableton, at least their HQ is doing. It's far more professional and sincere. It bears no comparison.

*spell

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Last edited by pencilrocket on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 620
Just chiming in here,-

I am very much looking forward to bitwig, but also know there is no slice to midi in the version we will see first. I read it on the bitwig FB page.

that's quite a big problem for me.

So it might not ALL be roses when it arrives!

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm
Posts: 64
JuanSOLO wrote:
I'm skeptical.
... I have seen quite a few responses from Abelton employees that sound as if the vision is hitting a wall.
Responses like
"Why would you want to do that?"
"How would that work in practical use?"
"Have you tried this M4L device?" (which dosent apply to requested feature)
etc etc



Case in point, just received this response from Ableton this morning:

Me: "consider developing the ability to have multiple templates in the future for Live 9. My default set is useless if I want to do some trailer music and therefore forces me to work in Logic. There are certain DAW features, such as this, that are universal for a simple reason - many artists work on many different projects in many different ways..."

Support response: "Thank you for sharing your wishes regarding multiple templates!
But why are you not creating different normal sets and use them as template?" :evil:

My reply back, "because it would be a project file and not a template now wouldn't it? the question is, why wouldn't users want to do this?" :lol:

.... Facking cants


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:29 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am
Posts: 1426
Quote:
Support response: "Thank you for sharing your wishes regarding multiple templates!
But why are you not creating different normal sets and use them as template?"


Funny, this is exactly the thought that crossed my mind when I was reading your request - why not just have Starter sets that you can load and Save As for whatever project you're working on?

This is what I do on occasion, if I know I'm going to be working on a track in a given style.

Quote:
because it would be a project file and not a template now wouldn't it?


You do realize that that is what the default template set is, right? Just a set saved however you want, that gets automatically loaded when you start Live?


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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 12595
agent314 wrote:
Quote:
Support response: "Thank you for sharing your wishes regarding multiple templates!
But why are you not creating different normal sets and use them as template?"


Funny, this is exactly the thought that crossed my mind when I was reading your request - why not just have Starter sets that you can load and Save As for whatever project you're working on?

This is what I do on occasion, if I know I'm going to be working on a track in a given style.

Quote:
because it would be a project file and not a template now wouldn't it?


You do realize that that is what the default template set is, right? Just a set saved however you want, that gets automatically loaded when you start Live?



That is not correct that these are equivalent. There is a flaw in your argument.

The problem with having several .als files as defaults ("film scoring", "rock", "DJ", etc) is that any set must belong to a project. By using pseudo-templates as you describe you will be left with abandoned waves, or waves in incorrect folders.

Here is a breakdown of how it fails

  1. Open a 'template' set from mytemplates/my-rock-template.als
  2. record a guitar
  3. save the set as /mysongs/new rock song
  4. examine the guitar wave you just recorded

Outcome : the guitar you recorded will reside in mytemplates/samples/recorded and NOT in the set which you saved.

The reason for this is : the 'template' set belongs to a project and the recordings will go in there even if you don't save the 'template'. When you do save to the location you desire the recordings will not be moved (as you might expect), unless you collect all and save, even then - the duplicates will not be moved, only copied. Your template project folder will eventually be filled with abandoned waves from every song you ever started..

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 Post subject: Re: finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:39 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm
Posts: 64
Exactly my reasoning for suggesting this ;)
It's not the same, and if for any reason you save it as a project (by accident or whatever) you run the risk of getting orphaned files... plus it's just a downright handy feature, and one I bet most Live users would start to actually use regularly.

Not only that, templates would show up right in your browser. No need to open anything and drill through any menus, just click your template and go from there...

(And I actually do scoring work in addition to electronic music, so glad you made that particular point..) Having a "trailer" template prebuilt with all of my orchestral rips, impacts and film percussion would be more than handy. On the flip side, having 8 gigs of Kontakt samples loaded into ram that I won't use in a dance track serves no purpose at all and only means I have to kick all of those samples out of ram before I can get started.

Either way it's just a smug answer. I would actually have preferred to get an email saying we have no plans in developing templates as part of Live than some support geek making me feel like this is some kind of useless feature (that is standard, for obvious resons, in any other DAW...)
Once again... facking cants... :evil:


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