Ableton Forum

"you wouldn't let it lie, would you? you wouldn't let it lie"

dr_loop wrote:

Let's squash this one - Bitwig and Ableton are two different companies, and Bitwig Studio is not Live 9.

... off course! But my guess is:

Bitwig and Ableton have at least an agreement or even a joint venture!
Bitwig plays the marketing guy for Ableton, for in the end they have not much of a chance against Ableton!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're 0 for 2. Two separate companies, and no collaboration.

some internet posters think the real world operates to the same rules as television drama.

Angstrom wrote:some internet posters think the real world operates to the same rules as television drama.

And they would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids!

on this whole bitwig conversation... to me there are other possibilities, to me there are too many similarities to suggest this isn't somehow related to Ableton, it is frequent for software companies to release products under different names under testing.. and radical versions with whole new paradigms look a the Adobe X products.... There are other reasons , fist, I seem to recall a lengthy document from an Ableton developer explaining why things like session automation would require a complete a rewrite, I also recall an important message about all feature development finishing until all bugs were fixed. There was also a comment in an interview where I believe it was Henke said he was surprised nobody had copied Ableton yet and I found that odd to read at first, especially so recently... So to me this may suggest that Ableton could have deliberately split into 2 separate development branches, one to support the existing code base and the other to completely rewrite the product... also I seem to recall the original issue with rewriting Ableton was that it would it break backward compatibility (and possibily contracts), if you release a completely new product, you don't have to worry about that, compatibility becomes another feature, this is similar to how Apple moved to used virtual machines for old programs... it has been a long time since any mention of Ableton 9, even now after Bitwig, it seems strange they would let this drop before 9... another point has been made about the location of Bitwig, and the involvement of Ableton staff.. and again the obvious similarity to the product itself + that Bitwig seems to address so many of the Ableton's concerns with not a note from Ableton on the matter, several ideas for this, this has to be a marketing disaster for Ableton, it has to be on purpose or some viral covert/compaign or something:

- Ableton 9 may never exist and Bitwig is its replacement. (I doubt this, if that would be the case then "big wit" would just be cover for Ableton.)
- Ableton 9 and Bitwig may coexist in order for one to phase into the other.
- Ableton 9 may be so woefully behind that they haven't got a response for Bitwig
- Ableton 9 may be have everything that Bitwig has and then some, but Bitwig looks very good...
- If Ableton 9 isn't a rewrite then Bitwig will take it over quickly anyway.
- Bitwig may be the reason for the Ableton 9's delay.

Let me put it this way, if Bitwig performs anywhere near as well as they say, I believe it will believe it will because they'll probably have dedicated linux systems, then Ableton will have to have a complete rewrite in order for me to stay with it, I'm sick of it's codebase, it's a good application but unsuitable for live work, a system hog and prone to crashes for my whole time with the product, which has been a long time... I personally want to Bitwig to be Ableton, or Ableton blow Bitwig out of the water... I don't want Ableton to fall apart...but it has to be a complete rewrite... not putting up with another patched version.

-hbeing
http://soundcloud.com/humanbeingmusic

if you were Ableton's ceo and Bitwig was nothing to do with Ableton's current business strategy, what would you say?
Ableton David has said they're unrelated, Robert Henke has said the session automation would require a total rewrite, Live 9 has taken a long time coming. My guess is that some people left near the beginning of 8.1 when the slo mo train trainwreck was starting to manifest and decided they could make Live better by starting from scratch - sell it cheaper and clean up. Meanwhile Live 9 is gradually being made, with extensive testing and fixing of the underlying codebase. thats why all of these partner products like amp and sampler packs have been made - they don't use up much of the development team's time.

I love the way that David Ableton can say "there is no Santa Claus" and people are still trying to figure out how many reindeer are needed in a 24 hour global distribution network.

do you really believe that they must rewrite the complete code to implement session automation?
but on the other side... if its true its another reason to buy a complete new daw like bitwig or studio one.

i believe david... and why should they search another location only because of the ableton hq?

This cannot be a serious question.

There is a world outside, you know...

Its so obviously a good idea to have session automation and people have been talking about it for what, 4 - 5 years? I am not a software developer - but it must be pretty difficult otherwise it would have been done already. also the relation between the api, clip envelopes and automation in the arranger is pretty fundamental to Live... its not window dressing like slice to midi or even group tracks - which are fairly logical extension of racks.

I didn't read Ableton_David's comments at first, but I'm sorry, no disrespect, but the lack of any proper official statements from Ableton on these matters or the state of their development efforts, means I can't take internal forum whispers with any much regard. You've had loyal customers on here for month demanding official statements.

I noticed that Ableton David stated that they were 2 different companies and did not collaborate, but I'm not reading anything that there is no relationship, these companies could have been deliberately split up and told not to collaborate, as I said 2 completely separate development branches.... I don't really want to get into speculation too much.... but if David is right then, like I said, Ableton really needs to step it up, or why they just saying something?... and Ableton doesn't really need rewrite due to session automation, it's more the practice they've locked themselves into, it needs a rewrite because it obviously uses very a clunky codebase, one that is not modern, prone to crashing, slow and obviously so locked in that they can't even make quick bug fixes anymore...live never took off like it should, it's all very disappointing... I'm now considering miracle like expectations from Ableton 9 which seem very unlikely... but who knows, I just wish the silence would drop soon, because I will jump ship to Bitwig if Ableton is going slower than them, despite some features lacking at first.

@oddstep yeah autom to session and redesigned clip concept is THE thing that make my interest in this story is so important.
we didn't asked and wait this for 4-5 years, but more like 8-10 years! If ableton was about to release it it would be so awesome crasy day for me. a national day off really. so im sooo curious about is it ableton that bring it or not.

@juan solo: hehe,the question might be now will ableton officially admit or not, and you have more chance to win on that one . @Tone. yeah, i am maybe totally off, that's why i asked. And seeing results, i am certainly off.. but

Still im 99 percent sure it's the same video team that made this promo video and Live new versions announcement by the past.
That's my daily job, and i might be wrong, but i higly doubt. the are too much similarities in editing, music choice and global style. this video is pure ableton style, like all other stuff it shows by the way.So what, they both called same external agency? this looks more like an internal common team for me.
Are we saying that 5 or more people leave Ableton, create bitwig that totally recreates/rewrite live externally as a 0.9:1 clone whithout shame and without internal deal, and that ableton isn't bothered by this, won't sue and even support it?
mmmmmm very hard to beleive

but i ll take what david says as an official answer and anyway, just wait and see. then i just hope L9 will have autom to session..too

there are a few other threads, in a few other places, a few years old, that will reveal small bits of info about how bitwig came to be.

if you are truly a fanatic about recording session automation, you would have researched this throughly via internet and not bought into the myth that biwig is somehow Live9.

sdfak1234 wrote:I didn't read Ableton_David's comments at first, but I'm sorry, no disrespect, but the lack of any proper official statements from Ableton on these matters or the state of their development efforts, means I can't take internal forum whispers with any much regard. You've had loyal customers on here for month demanding official statements.

I noticed that Ableton David stated that they were 2 different companies and did not collaborate, but I'm not reading anything that there is no relationship, these companies could have been deliberately split up and told not to collaborate, as I said 2 completely separate development branches.... I don't really want to get into speculation too much.... but if David is right then, like I said, Ableton really needs to step it up, or why they just saying something?... and Ableton doesn't really need rewrite due to session automation, it's more the practice they've locked themselves into, it needs a rewrite because it obviously uses very a clunky codebase, one that is not modern, prone to crashing, slow and obviously so locked in that they can't even make quick bug fixes anymore...live never took off like it should, it's all very disappointing... I'm now considering miracle like expectations from Ableton 9 which seem very unlikely... but who knows, I just wish the silence would drop soon, because I will jump ship to Bitwig if Ableton is going slower than them, despite some features lacking at first.

Believe me, we wouldn't lie to the community like that. Bitwig and Ableton are different, and there has been no collaboration between the two. As to an official statement, we don't comment on other companies' products.

Who Cares!!!

JuanSOLO wrote:there are a few other threads, in a few other places, a few years old, that will reveal small bits of info about how bitwig came to be.
if you are truly a fanatic about recording session automation, you would have researched this throughly via internet and not bought into the myth that biwig is somehow Live9.

I am, can show ya posts where i requested autom to session reguraly from 2004, and i know few other had asked that even before.i am really awaiting autom to session, and made several 'campaigns' over the years and threads to make people reach that cause,saw the so famous henke answer at the L5 time ect blabla. the never ending story
and honestly, i might be bad searching or what (search function is strange, isn't it) but I never found or recall the correlations and infos about bitwig and autom to session you mention.i sure beleive ya and will search,but i would be happy to help me find those bits of infos!

so you confirm the theory that a major part of the dev left ableton for the rewrite?
well personally I always asked for a rewrite in favor to autom to session, clips compatible arrange/session, so
bitwig somehow is the L9 is espected. but at least now i have the answer that is not an ableton product ok.