STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
fx23
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by fx23 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:52 pm

petit nuage wrote: @fx 23

i will try your advices , its interesting !
but when delay compensation is off , you told :.."manually offsets track delay " how ?
by moving audio files in arrangenment and manually realign them or ? how in session ... nudge function ? or moving/offset start point into the audio/midi clips ?

THANKS !
Im generally not offseting but when i have to all i do now in live is by ears and eyes. If i hear a sloppy/unsynced thing, i first try to adsjut the track delay manually till i hear it's were i want it. if i was an automation/modulation, i also have to offset manually (and it really sucks). But you don't have to compensate all if it sounds good. just judge by ears. If i want perfect phasing stuff, swich to samples offsets instead of ms use an oscilloscope, but it's rare.
3dot... wrote:what exactly do you mean by "tighter results" ?
if you leave Adc and set Vst buffers as audio, there are many obscures random things occuring in timing wich makes that ie a strong phased on grid vst generated wavform can drift and have random starts over time even if in loop. if off the latency is predicable,vst will output the sound ie 32 sample later and the resulting audio wavform phase relationship with grid will remain always the same over bars, so results are tighter, always the same, no random live timmings.

petit nuage
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by petit nuage » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:27 am

thanks for sharing some advices !

i must now to re-think a bit my way of produce music in live (no delay compensation) and/or to keep an eye on it if i enable this option .

at least until the next live 's version ...

carrieres
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by carrieres » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:47 pm

i don't think live9 will resolve your problem :(
i suggest you to keep pdc enabled and check with another daw (orion or reaper) the latency reported by the plugin to at least find the culprit
but if there is no plugin with latency reported i think it safe to disable the option i am doing it with orion !
i keep it disabled until i use a plugin who need it
Yamaha CS-30, Roland SH-1 and MKS70, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6, Yamaha FS1R, Oberheim Matrix 1000, Novation Remote 37SL, Alesis M1Active 520, Novation Launchpad PRO
Intel i7-7700HQ, Windows 10, Ableton Live 10 Suite
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petit nuage
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by petit nuage » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:51 pm

hi and thanks (merci héhé)

i hope live will be rewrited for the next version because there is others daws like bitwig, presonus ,reaper which are interesting...
i would like to use just few plugs and mainly the native live's plugs ...

but i dont know if the sidechain and lookahead 's options on some of these native plugs create latencies ?

i just would like to use live native's plugs + ddmf plugs + varietyofsound +dsp sonimus son eq - molot ..:maily what i use ..
but i know some plug's latency but all arent specified in the manuals...


if i use plugs to print them in audio , must i record that with or without delay compensation ?
so i must find a quick method or just print all in audio during a sound design session ..


ps: it will be nice that ableton give some advices to get the best of live with or without delay compensation .

carrieres
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by carrieres » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:02 pm

did you check this option :
-StrictDelayCompensation in options.txt file ?

http://www.ableton.com/pages/faq/options_text
Yamaha CS-30, Roland SH-1 and MKS70, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6, Yamaha FS1R, Oberheim Matrix 1000, Novation Remote 37SL, Alesis M1Active 520, Novation Launchpad PRO
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Hermanus
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by Hermanus » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:36 pm

I think this option is now directly available in live itself, no options.txt required anymore about strict delay compensation.

RD444
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:55 pm

am i getting this right...

  • If I have delay compensation ON
  • Record loads of fast moving rhythmic automation on a filter
  • then Stack loads of third party plugins
  • Will my rhythmic automation be out of time?
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RD444
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:26 am

3dot... wrote:
16.5 Device Delay Compensation


Note: there are a few situations in which Live cannot compensate for plug-in delay:
• Automation is not delay compensated. As a result, when using automation on tracks
that contain devices that cause delays, the automation may sound early.
• Tempo-synced effects and other devices that get timing information from Live's internal
clock may sound out of sync if they are placed in a device chain after devices which
cause delay.

[/b]
I was wrong...

This passage is not in paper manual version 8 (only the PDF). if this is true its a terrible blow to me thinking Live was prepositional tool.

I've been thinking that some of my tracks started sounding a bit off after a while with LFO filters going out of sync.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RCUS
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RCUS » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:51 am

not to exclude any genres, but i really do think alot of us here are talking about modern dance music right? or at least modern music where tight automation is desired ala synced LFO's, groove heavy stuff etc..

In that vain I would really love a DEFINITIVE explanation from Ableton on the best way to approach this to achieve optimum 'tightness'. It would seem to me that the big names of the dance music scene are either on another DAW that doesn't suffer from the same issues OR they have mastered this issue in Ableton. While I can't deny there is a wealth of other knowledge to attain to achieve quality commercial releases, dealing a rusty gear deliberately built into your DAW with no DEFINITIVE way to rectify the issue is VERY VERY FRUSTRATING. This is not an issue of abstract technique ala "set your listening position up approximately 38% from your front or back wall in a home studio". Rather, there has to be an answer. And if there IS no DEFINITIVE answer, then there should be BEST PRACTICES at least provided by Ableton. And by provided I mean it should be sent out as an addendum to the manual to all paying customers.

So like
1) Turn delay compensation off
2) Adjust your plugin buffer setting to fixed or not fixed
3) Compose your song part
4) Render your audio
4) Adjust timing manually as you go by moving the rendered audio manually in the arrange view.

OR

1) Leave delay compensation on
2) Adjust your buffer setting to fixed or not fixed
3) Compose your song
4) Adjust your timing via delay compensation field per each track or adjust the offset manually in your plugin
5) Render your audio

Would be nice to have additional other tips like:
"When using High Quality mode for Live's devices it's best to approach PDC this way. If you don't want this result, then do it THIS way" etc...

Is this so hard? What's the big secret? I don't see why I should have to go trudging through forum after forum to find info like this. The Live manual only confirms that there is a problem and offers no solution.

RD444
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:15 pm

its totally sh*te of Ableton

details are not printed in the manual, but on the pdf manual

-

Adding effects makes automation (including vol pan etc) and tempo synced effects go out of sync
"a sequencer that doesn't play stuff in time"

removing effects makes automation (including vol pan etc) and tempo synced effects go out of sync
"a sequencer that doesn't play stuff in time"

Mix everything to Audio as soon as it sounds ok

Strategy = If you can see more than 2 plugins everything to the right will be out of time
Strategy = dont use lives 'track' VOL PAN Automation if you want to use Vsts
Strategy = 'per clip' volume automation is not effected the same





look out for Bitwig http://bitwig.com/bitwig_studio.php
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

O D N
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by O D N » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:42 pm

This is a quite an interesting subject, and I can't figure out why Ableton is such speechless about it...

ckluxen2
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ckluxen2 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:07 pm

You could do it manually by a simple delay, but its not a workaround for me and shift all tracks except the tracks causing latency.
.
There`s the same issue with renoise, but the possibility to reset synced effects that get out of time by delay compensation.
Delay compensation is a one-way road in Live using 3rd Party Plugs.

RCUS
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RCUS » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:52 pm

Revisiting this topic again. I see there's still no solid response from the Abes, lovely =/

About to dive back in and feel i've devised a solid work around (hopefully).

the concept:

1) Leave Delay Compensation ON
2) Set plug in buffer size to: As Audio Buffer
3) Separate each track into two parts (grouped). One lane will have the sound source (midi, audio) and the other lane will contain any effects i use. Route the first lane (Post Mixer) into the second lane, and the second lane outputs to the group.
4) Use the Track Delay at the bottom of the 'sound source' lane to fine tune the delay, manually, or for 3rd party plugs, adjust the 'offset' if it has one.
5) When satisfied, render the finished audio, re-import into the set and further nudge/adjust timing if necessary

I haven't actually put this into practice yet =) so wondering if I missed anything. In my mind, any automation directly happening within a plugin, could still be drawn in Ableton, then you can use the Track Delays to 'tighten' it up with the rest of the song.

thoughts?

Tone Deft
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:12 am

in the wrong hands it's a recipe to really screw things up.

could you pursue a way to measure if the delay is set right? something like phase inversion to get the audio to cancel at the end of the chain.

regarding the whole issue, if what you're doing sounds wrong, why do it?

props for being a problem solver and not just another whiner.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

RCUS
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RCUS » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:52 am

not sure if I follow you regarding using phase inversion to verify this particular example? what did you have in mind as a test?

from what i understand about this issue (and god knows i might be wrong), Ableton's delay comp creates a moving target scenario, with a random, push/pull for 3rd party plug-in timing. couple that with the fact that not all 3rd party plugs are supported and I don't think there's any way possible to calculate a specific delay that would apply to every situation. it's like trying to score a goal on a net that doesn't stay in one place.

thanks for the props! i'll resume my whining and Ableton bashing once i go home and realize it doesn't work 8)

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