STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
ze2be
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Location: Europe

Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ze2be » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:23 pm

RD444 wrote:Ableton don't care about you or this
I understand your frustration. From where im coming from, I really do. Ableton do care, and they were really quick to respond my mail on this. So theres your proof. But lets keep it to the topic, ok?

3dot started to make a latency list in another tread. It would be nice if we, the comunity could divide the task of going through and testing the latency on all the native pugs, and collect the test results on a list. This list could be helpfull in tracking down what effect chains one should avoid, etc.

RD444
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:48 pm

Ok fairs fair

Ableton sent me free dj bag from their shop

Because live doesn't work with automap.

So..... er ask for a free bag.


PDC should be able to be calculated on multiple plugins.

It's whack that live doesn't do it. Others sequencers do.

It's pretty standard expectation of a sequencer to play stuff in time ......

I might be wrong .....
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

Tone Deft
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:51 pm

RD444 wrote:Ok fairs fair

Ableton sent me free dj bag from their shop

Because live doesn't work with automap.

So..... er ask for a free bag.
totally childish. Live doesn't work with Automap? I've been using it for years. it's a telling statement, you don't know how to use the software and you're rude enough to shit on people that give you free things. you don't have to be able to be bought, you should just be able to be civil about it.

PDC should be able to be calculated on multiple plugins.

It's whack that live doesn't do it. Others sequencers do.

It's pretty standard expectation of a sequencer to play stuff in time ......

I might be wrong .....
again, your complete naivety is showing. name the sequencers that do this.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

RD444
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:03 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
RD444 wrote:Ok fairs fair

Ableton sent me free dj bag from their shop

Because live doesn't work with automap.

So..... er ask for a free bag.
totally childish. Live doesn't work with Automap? I've been using it for years. it's a telling statement, you don't know how to use the software and you're rude enough to shit on people that give you free things. you don't have to be able to be bought, you should just be able to be civil about it.

PDC should be able to be calculated on multiple plugins.

It's whack that live doesn't do it. Others sequencers do.

It's pretty standard expectation of a sequencer to play stuff in time ......

I might be wrong .....
again, your complete naivety is showing. name the sequencers that do this.

don't get on my pip fool

PDC should be calculated per plug so tempo synced plugs and automation dont play out of time all the major sequencers do this. so beat it prat


thanks again for your mail on this topic.

The bug has not yet been fixed with Live 8.2.5, where we concentrated on other stuff. See http://www.ableton.com/releasenotes-lesson

Currently, the Automap/VST automation issue is rather high on our list, but I still can't give you a specific date or version where we'll address this.
Regards,

Torsten Wendland | Software Test Engineer
Ableton Technical Support
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:05 pm

Live and Nocturn are incompatible
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=145913&start=15

this video explains it



http://youtu.be/fRrQszGNf04

Last edited by RD444 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:07 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
RD444 wrote:Ok fairs fair

Ableton sent me free dj bag from their shop

Because live doesn't work with automap.

So..... er ask for a free bag.
totally childish. Live doesn't work with Automap? I've been using it for years. it's a telling statement, you don't know how to use the software and you're rude enough to shit on people that give you free things. you don't have to be able to be bought, you should just be able to be civil about it.

PDC should be able to be calculated on multiple plugins.

It's whack that live doesn't do it. Others sequencers do.

It's pretty standard expectation of a sequencer to play stuff in time ......

I might be wrong .....
again, your complete naivety is showing. name the sequencers that do this.
Posts: 22698 and you don't know of these issues


read the post .........then apologise to me

its a telling statement that you don't know of this issue lol

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=145913
Last edited by RD444 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:17 pm

Image

here's the freebag i got by way of apology from Ableton
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:21 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
RD444 wrote:Ok fairs fair

Ableton sent me free dj bag from their shop

Because live doesn't work with automap.

So..... er ask for a free bag.
totally childish. Live doesn't work with Automap? I've been using it for years. it's a telling statement, you don't know how to use the software and you're rude enough to shit on people that give you free things. you don't have to be able to be bought, you should just be able to be civil about it.
Can you be bought for a bag??? Can your mum?

the bag was supposed to be temporary thing to tide me over while they fixed the issue
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RCUS
Posts: 277
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RCUS » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:44 pm

RD444 wrote:
So..... er ask for a free bag.

LOL EPIC! 8)

It's one thing to know the latency of a plug. it's another thing to know WHAT Plugin Delay Comp is actually doing behind the scenes. The way i understand it, it's flexible, pushing and pulling the timing, not static.

In the vain of making a list of latencys, Robert Henke came out in another thread and admitted "Erosion has a delay of 5ms" and that it was on the list to fix. HOWEVER, if PDC is static, then WHY doesn't Erosion zero out when setting the inverse audio to 5ms in the track delay?

Try IT!

1) Set your sample rate to 44.1k and record bit depth to 24 bit
2) Leave Plugin Delay Compensation ON
3) Take an Operator, drop into a track, loop any note for however many bars, export to a 44.1k 24bit file
4) Add an Erosion (amount set to zero) to the Operator track
5) Put the 44.1k 24 bit file you just recorded in step 3 into a separate track
6) Add a phase inverted Utility to the recorded file track
7) Adjust the track delay to 5ms and play

Why is there still sound? Master was peaking at -43.04 i this scenario. I understand that Robert said 5ms and it may not be exactly 5ms so I even tried tiny edits to the latency, changing the track delay by sample increments of 1 Smp instead of ms, and it still doesn't null. Alternately, it's also IMPOSSIBLE to nudge the audio in arrangement view to try to slide it to a finer location and try to get it to null. You have to zoom in, click and drag with the mouse. Would be nice to click the clip and have some sort of finer control, left to right in arrangement view, but again that's what the track delay is for.

feel free to point out any flaws in my test above but for now > :?: smh

would a list of latencies help? YES. Is the community idea a good one? YES. but not for anything, when did I become part of Ableton's R+D team? where's my check? god knows i don't have time for all that and last time I checked I PAID for this software.

At the end of the day 5ms isn't going to make your song suck, but an effects chain 10 devices deep (native and 3rd party) might make it sound crappy.

All signs pointing to; BOUNCE YOUR AUDIO, EARLY AND OFTEN...and don't forget to take off WARP when you do it

fml

RD444
Posts: 265
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by RD444 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:09 pm

Thanks for the props man

There's some really good advice on this post (like the post above)

problem : Plugins that are tempo synced will go out of time if they are not in position 1 on the plugin chain.
solution: only use tempo synced plugins in position 1

problem :automation will go out of time if you add or remove plugs from the chain
solution: only use slow evolving automation or mix it down straight away

problem: months pass because Live don't fix the problem
solution: ask for a free bag, ignore forum clueless FANBOYS (see further up above)and Abletons responses. I can post some Ableton responses for Sh*ts and giggles.. Google search any problem, if its been around a while it wont get fixed soon.



I just want to make sure people don't waste weeks because they are listening to Abletons responses or forum FANBOYS chatting rubbish.


.....now has that fool apologised yet....
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

ze2be
Posts: 3463
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:17 am
Location: Europe

Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ze2be » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:26 pm

RCUS: Well, I dont think null tests are the best analyser tool in this case. Because there could be lots of variable micro delays going on, its very unlikely to match up with a null test. But just by zooming in on the wave files on the time line, its clearly visible and measurable.

In regards to helping out, I was only pointing to those who would like to do so. Not weather or not one should because of this or that reason. Just dont have time or will to spend energy on complaining and waiting for upgrades.

RD444: please stay on topic. This is not about Automap or personal attacks. We are actually trying to help the community here. Ok? Thanks.


..so, there are other variables in adittion to the plugins. Soundcard settings, buffer size, etc.

ze2be
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Location: Europe

Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ze2be » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:34 pm

RD444 wrote: problem : Plugins that are tempo synced will go out of time if they are not in position 1 on the plugin chain.
solution: only use tempo synced plugins in position 1

problem :automation will go out of time if you add or remove plugs from the chain
solution: only use slow evolving automation or mix it down straight away
Ok, thanks for that. It would be helfull if we had some kind of list of what each plug produce of latency, so we can avoid those if we want to.

3dot...
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by 3dot... » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:04 pm

the thing is though ... it's not consistent...
and also depends on the buffer settings..among other stuff..

for instance : it can sound right to you when you build your set and save..
but then when you re-open it.. sometimes timing would be off..
the culprits are usually stuff put on the returns..
from what I've tested..
there is an obvious problem with timing of the returns...
and it applies also to some Live devices..

I think committing to audio is currently the only way to "stay safe"
Image

Tone Deft
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:52 pm

sounds like a great job for a m4L device. albeit if that was the case I'd think an Abe would code it up. send an impulse to one end of the chain, catch it at the other end, measure the time, adjust accordingly.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

3dot...
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by 3dot... » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:58 pm

Tone Deft wrote:sounds like a great job for a m4L device. albeit if that was the case I'd think an Abe would code it up. send an impulse to one end of the chain, catch it at the other end, measure the time, adjust accordingly.
don't get me started on m4l devices timing.. :cry:
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