STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
ze2be
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ze2be » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:24 pm

:lol:

Tone Deft
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:28 pm

3dot... wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:sounds like a great job for a m4L device. albeit if that was the case I'd think an Abe would code it up. send an impulse to one end of the chain, catch it at the other end, measure the time, adjust accordingly.
don't get me started on m4l devices timing.. :cry:
there's no problem with those.

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ze2be
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ze2be » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:35 pm

3dot... wrote:the thing is though ... it's not consistent...
and also depends on the buffer settings..among other stuff..

for instance : it can sound right to you when you build your set and save..
but then when you re-open it.. sometimes timing would be off..
the culprits are usually stuff put on the returns..
from what I've tested..
there is an obvious problem with timing of the returns...
and it applies also to some Live devices..

I think committing to audio is currently the only way to "stay safe"
But there must be something there to measure? I mean how else would you figure out that some plugs introduce more delay then others?
Lets say we find the margin, like say +/- 2ms. In a chain with 2 plugs, where one produce 5ms, and the other produce 10 ms, we still get a usable avrage number of arround 14ms.

Tone Deft
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:37 pm

taking a step back...

users aren't finding a way around it.
Ableton hasn't found a way around it.
ergo, it's not an easy problem to solve.

I think 3dot's point was that there are a lot of moving parts to the problem.
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ze2be
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ze2be » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:50 pm

Clearly there are. But if the tests are run with the same settings all through, like the famous Live 8 Performance Test, we should at least be able to nail down some general variables.

3dot...
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by 3dot... » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:53 pm

yep. Tone summed it up..

I can correct the timing so it nulls.. and then.. something changes..
or for instance.. dragging in the same fx will result in a different latency value than before..

and sometimes adjusting delay is simply impossible.. it will never cancel.. no matter how 'fine' you try to tune it..

Ableton already acknowledged there's a problem way back..
realistically ..
I see no solution to this until Live9..
there is a whole lot of mess added up in Live8..
really hope they sort out for the next version..
personally I've given up long ago on this one.. .
first the crashes.. then the midi timing.. then the PDC timing..
various m4l shenanigans...
I still send crash reports from time to time..
so a while back I decided to live with its "quirks"..
instead of getting all pissed all the time..

and for the record.. no one ever offered me no free bag..or anything useful.. for that matter
:mrgreen:
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ze2be
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by ze2be » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:04 pm

I see.. So it really changes. Do you think Live needs a restart to get the pdc right after you have added new plugs? Im just brain storming here.

I too feel lots of things happend when Live 8 was introduced. Ram crash and latency being the main problems. This year im also geting a huge cpu usage and spikes from automation alone. But my projects were also growing into monsters the last 3 years of Live 8s life span, pushing the system to its limits...and beyond.

3dot...
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by 3dot... » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:17 pm

well for now.. just be aware that it's happening ..
and commit to audio if it sounds right..
stash the track in the browser for when you want to come back to it....
freeze...flatten..
or if that can't be trusted record it to audio on another track in realtime..
it's a headache..

I would definitely not suggest restarting live each time..
that would be a big workflow killer..
but maybe look for timing problems each time you load it..before you start working on it..
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petit nuage
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by petit nuage » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:22 pm

BIG THANKS for your all your tips and advices !

its very appreciated :wink:


for me, i will try this : no delay compensation + live's native plugs + no hi-Q but..high rates (88/96 khz) to avoid the oversampling and to have a quality sound but without latency caused by the oversampling...
otherwise, it seems that using audio racks are a good alternative to sends.

and yes otherwise... bouncing to audio with the metronome on and adjusting the delay precisely seems the best way to go...
but where is now the ergonomical ,quick, fast,reliable and efficient side of live ...THIS MAGIC WORKFLOW ? :lol:


i hope this issue will be solve for a free live 8.5 version because for me its not serious, to didnt have solved this pdc issue for years.
since version 4 live cost me money and i was thinking naively that timing was just fundamental in music, more than an effect or some nice features .

so thats cool to have a new version with new effects..but if i want to acess this effects in hq mode ...this increase the latency and the loss of timing soo for me its absurd to give something on one side that you cant use efficiently on the other side, afraid by the loss of timing, plug after plug and track after track...


for me this issue its not a litte detail clearly !!!
so i really dont understand why it wasnt a priority for the previous versions ??!!!


so im a bit angry and disapointed to have to pay again (waiting live 9..) to have this essential issue solved finally...
i really LOVE live and is my main and only daw so for me its hard to wait for this to be fixed and to dont have ableton offical tips and advices about that ...i just have one daw so i dont have a B-plan ...

thanks for your understanding ...

merges
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by merges » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:45 am

Just to revive this epic thread… there is a reasonable amount of advice for production and arrangement here (bouncing frequently), slow evolving automation to prevent timing slips, etc.

But what about people who are trying to work with Live… live? For instance, strategies for using Live to monitor and mix instruments, vocals, drum machines, etc., using software effects, maybe even using (gasp) a high-latency plugin or two on the master bus… eep!

carrieres
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by carrieres » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:45 am

i don't want to deny this problem but don't forget that a lot of performer musician use live without seeing this problem as a no go.
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Hermanus
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by Hermanus » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:59 pm

If we were on a game forum, people wouldn't try to find a way to solve this.

They would make everything to use this delay compensation at their advantage.

This topic remembers me some speed runs on games.
Gamers uses glitches and tiny bugs to achieve incredible things so they end a game very fast.


Why it is not the same here?

I mean use it at your advantage.

Use latency to rebump your audio, then slow it down or speed it up, whatever. basic stuff but let start somewhere.
one would be amazed with the results :idea:
Don't get limited, use it.
just a point of view

3dot...
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by 3dot... » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:10 pm

(if you can't beat them... join them!)
I hadn't had many "happy mistakes" from this bug..
but it's bad enough at some points that you can't mind trick and perceive it as a good thing..
timing issues are unwanted behavior of the bad kind...
sure... there's no other reason but to adjust (until they fix it that is...)
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merges
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by merges » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:38 pm

Ain't no orchestra like a sloppy orchestra. :P

3dot...
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Re: STRATEGIES TO GET THE BEST OUT LIVE : DELAY COMPENSATION

Post by 3dot... » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:44 pm

merges wrote:Ain't no orchestra like a sloppy orchestra. :P
when you want it sloppy...
this isn't bringing in a "human element" if that's what you're intending..
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