Something to make all of you sound designers think

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
anybody human
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by anybody human » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:52 pm

Two little things jump out for me: Hermanus chain idea, 1 filtered w/ the freq. automated & quickly fade in the dry chain.

If you already have M4L, the free DJTechTools Mapulator would work for a drawing a custom bezier curve: http://www.djtechtools.com/2012/02/16/m ... r-ableton/
Otherwise, just use a clip envelope & draw enough points to make a quick quick initial curve.

Also, I like Forge. idea of a longer pre delay time in the alley. Sounds like a fun project.
Last edited by anybody human on Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anybody human
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by anybody human » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:54 pm

bicarbone wrote:Gentle filter, volume, reverb and foley (footsteps and ambience in the alley: wind? distant traffic? people passing by?)

I would try to design it "backwards": how does it sound inside the club (PA, reverb, crowd chatter). When I think it's realistic, I'd figure out how that sound would be percieved in front of the door and further back in the alley, playing with volume, muffling the sound a bit with a touch of reverb that would match outdoor ambience foley.

I would be cautious with panning as it can quickly sound unnatural.
Work backwards, great idea.

Z3NO
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Z3NO » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:10 pm

TheUriah wrote:
Mr D wrote:This how i'd do it:

I'd just go to a club and record it with a hand-held recorder. Having a DJ mate would help. It'll sound way more realistic and there would be a greater contrast when you switch to the full-range sound.
Perhaps, but there's a reason that movie and tv producers rarely use location audio...
Is that right? What reason?

Forge.
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Forge. » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:16 pm

Z3NO wrote:
TheUriah wrote:
Mr D wrote:This how i'd do it:

I'd just go to a club and record it with a hand-held recorder. Having a DJ mate would help. It'll sound way more realistic and there would be a greater contrast when you switch to the full-range sound.
Perhaps, but there's a reason that movie and tv producers rarely use location audio...
Is that right? What reason?
because you don't need to. You could actually go to all the trouble of recording real sounds in a real environment, and there is no guarantee that once you put the recording to the visuals that it will actually look/sound that good.

Or you could go in the studio and make sounds that sound convincing by recording something completely unrelated, but sounds like what's on screen and people won't even thing about it. (the curse of the sound-engineer is that the really good ones are completely invisible.)

Most of the TV programs and movies you have see will have soundtracks that were created like this.

Angstrom
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Angstrom » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:29 pm

I wouldn't use a straight lowpass to *put something behind a door*. That's a very small part of an emulation for that sort of effect.

That's not really what we hear in a situation like that, it's much more complex - almost too complex to list but here's a breakdown.

#1 the low end(everything below about 100hz) will probably transfer almost directly to the listening point

#2 there will be general mid range acoustic energy leakage through the surface of the building, boarded up windows, the cleaner's room, the greenroom windows. all of these type of surfaces facing onto the alley will have been fed down corridors, through doors and hallways. this sort of noise sounds like a multi-tap delay, an obfuscated mush of sound variously waveshaped sound coming from a myriad of directions. Perhaps even over the top of the building!

#3 reverberant objects (and I dont mean reverb) , the door handles on the security door, the metal bins, the coke cans in the bins, the steel grate on the back window - all of those will make rattley reverberant noises which are related to the noise in the club.

So, a "club through a closed door" when you break it down is a not simply a lowpassed sound, it has lots of high frequency content, but that content has been mangled in various ways.

the best thing to do is browse around freesound looking for any recordings of noisey neighbours, street sounds and the like. There are things to be gained from listening to how buildings really affect sound.

Z3NO
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Z3NO » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:37 pm

Forge. wrote: because you don't need to. You could actually go to all the trouble of recording real sounds in a real environment, and there is no guarantee that once you put the recording to the visuals that it will actually look/sound that good.

Or you could go in the studio and make sounds that sound convincing by recording something completely unrelated, but sounds like what's on screen and people won't even thing about it. (the curse of the sound-engineer is that the really good ones are completely invisible.)

Most of the TV programs and movies you have see will have soundtracks that were created like this.
Well, you certainly sound like you know what you're talking about... If I didn't actually work in film and TV, you'd have fooled me pretty well.

Vios
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Vios » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:43 pm

This is how I would do it: get a portable recorder/microphone and blast the music in your living room (with Live playing your intro looped). Walk outside and hold the microphone as you walk into your house into the living room. Be sure to pause if you want to edit some additional sounds as the listener is "waiting in line." It won't be that hard to match it to your original audio well enough. I probably wouldn't crossfade, back into your original track, but create a break in the music so you can instantly transition between the recorded audio and your new track. You'll notice they do this in films at scenes with parties - they cut from one shot to the next with different audio. There's rarely any transition.

Also record yourself walking with the mic near your feet without the music, so you have footsteps if you need them. Have some friends over and record some random sound bytes. Have one friend with a deep voice be a bouncer and others be voices of people waiting to get in, rejected due to the dress code, whatever.

After that, it's easy to add additional sounds you need like traffic, doors closing, background conversation noise etc.

If you really want to know how to do this well, You should spend the time recording it yourself. If you talk to audio producers for films, they all started by running around sets as one of the audio guys with a microphone. I've helped a friend of mine with a couple of projects doing this, and it does change how you think about sound.

ekord123
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by ekord123 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Wow, I was really suprised with all of the excellent responses that you guys have come up with.

One recurring point that I had not thought of is transitioning between a dry and filter frequency, rather than just raising the cutoff. The only way I know of how to do this would be to just duplicate the music tracks, one filtered and one without a filter, and just draw the envelopes in to fade out of the filter and into the dry track (although one of you mentioned that I can do this with a chain, so I will look into that, i'm sure its much easier).

I am going to try to do as much of this purely "in the box" as I can, I totally understand the merrits of recording this in the real world but I want to try and challenge myself and get better with whipping this kind of illusion up.

I really liked the idea of using a mid-side so that when the door first opens, the center signal is unfilterred and the side side signals are still low passed.

for the alley I will go with a long pre delay and a short decay time (as one of you said). The music is really electro grungy sounding (think head like a whole). and I want the club to have a good deal of reverb as well.

I've gotta say this has been the most fun I've had doing work in college so far, and I really appreciate all the advice. It's really something to have a pool of experts to learn from. when i am all finished I will post a link so that you guys can hear.

puzzlefactory
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by puzzlefactory » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:13 pm

This is cheating but do you have Reaktor? If so, the "Space Master Stereo" ensemble has a patch called "Back Stage" that will probably work well for you.

Machinesworking
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:35 pm

First off if you have a convolution reverb use it. There are free ones on both platforms, Windows has a great free one.

You keep on mentioning a filter for damping the noise, well EQ's are filters with various filter types EQ8 should work fine for this. most, not all but most of this is going to come from the EQ settings drawn out in automation. What I would use is a chain of an amp or mic simulator, reverb, EQ, probably two EQs and maybe a white or pink noise loop automated. The rest is carving and sculpting.

Fat_Stanley
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Fat_Stanley » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 pm

Don't know whether this will be a help or a hinderance, but the description you've given reminded me straight away of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkpzlPa9A_U :)

Machinesworking
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:43 am

ekord123 wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:First off if you have a convolution reverb use it. There are free ones on both platforms, Windows has a great free one.

You keep on mentioning a filter for damping the noise, well EQ's are filters with various filter types EQ8 should work fine for this. most, not all but most of this is going to come from the EQ settings drawn out in automation. What I would use is a chain of an amp or mic simulator, reverb, EQ, probably two EQs and maybe a white or pink noise loop automated. The rest is carving and sculpting.

Yes, I was just considering using a high shelf on eq for a filter effect, and gradually letting other frequencies escape. although this could be tricky. what exactly would you use an amp/mic simulator for? and the white noise?
The main thing with EQ or better EQs is you get a true low shelf EQ, plus you get shelving filters.
Mic simulators or amp simulators are basically distortions, but less square wave sounding. A muffled club behind walls and doors is also distorted. The same is true with noise, a muffled cub sound is also less distinct sounding, both of these I would use with extreme subtlety. Though there's something to be said about passing the whole thing through a distortion to give it a 'recorded feel.

TheUriah
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by TheUriah » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:03 am

Z3NO wrote:
TheUriah wrote:
Mr D wrote:This how i'd do it:

I'd just go to a club and record it with a hand-held recorder. Having a DJ mate would help. It'll sound way more realistic and there would be a greater contrast when you switch to the full-range sound.
Perhaps, but there's a reason that movie and tv producers rarely use location audio...
Is that right? What reason?
So wait a minute. Someone who works in TV and Movies (doing...whaaat exactly?) doesn't know why location audio is rarely used as most sound is placed in post production? How does that work? ( From an occasional post-engineer myself. )

Z3NO
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by Z3NO » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:21 pm

Yes you are right. I apologise. All sound is done in post.
I've been getting paid £250/day to peel potatoes for the last 8 years. Silly me.

oddstep
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Re: Something to make all of you sound designers think

Post by oddstep » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:32 pm

Z3NO wrote:Yes you are right. I apologise. All sound is done in post.
I've been getting paid £250/day to peel potatoes for the last 8 years. Silly me.
good work fella!

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