No delay compensation for Automation??

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Eloheim
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No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Eloheim » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:55 am

Hey I just stumbled upon in the Live manual the following (regarding Automatic Delay Compensation):
Note: there are a few situations in which Live cannot compensate for plug-in delay:
~Automation is not delay compensated. As a result, when using automation on tracks that contain devices that cause delays, the automation may sound early.


This really sounds strange to me, and I must admit I've never noticed any issues. Anyone?

mholloway
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by mholloway » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:31 am

I've never had any issues because of it, but it certainly is a regular entry on the shit-list of Ableton Haters in other forums.

-M
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

arafel
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by arafel » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:32 am

There are big threads about this here too...

But I've only had issue this this twice...
2.8ghz Quad Mac, Live 9.77, Remote25, Maschine 1, Fa-66 optical link, Samson 65a. Dog hair.. lots.

timothyallan
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by timothyallan » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:39 am

Depends how you work: if you use latency inducing plugins a lot and record really quick/precise automation, it will drive you nuts.


Sibanger
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Sibanger » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:50 am

I have experienced this today. Took me a little while to understand what the fuck was going on.

Hard to write automation on midi events when you are guessing where the notes are....

Don't know why this track was effected so badly by this. I have so many other tracks that are very resource heavy that I would presume, would suffer from PDC, but don't.

Hmmmmm, will have a closer look @ what is causing so much latency.

fx23
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:03 am

sometimes if you got complex routings that ie go to send and back to a track you can get high latencies too, wich is somehow normal limitation..

try to check routing and if no pb delete devices one after the other (note bypassing them don't remove latency, and won't help, have to delete them) to spot the one causing problems.

Sarrova-Q
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Sarrova-Q » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:48 am

Same thing for automation and high buffer sizes no?

RD444
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by RD444 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:52 pm

Depends how you work: if you use latency inducing plugins a lot and record really quick/precise automation, it will drive you nuts.
yes its driving me nuts

Is there any way of telling how much latency each plugin is creating?
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

fx23
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:13 pm

RD444 wrote: yes its driving me nuts
Is there any way of telling how much latency each plugin is creating?

Directly in live NO,.. but there are still possible tricks via recording gated volume automation to a new clip and checking the new waforms, then report how many it it offseted from the 'real' sync grid. with few 3rd party it's possible to get it directly. (ie if drop usineVst in a live track then drop a Vst inside usine there is a test/report latency button that will output you latency in samples.
but automations/modulation are on a beat time line. so you first have to convert samples to duration, then duration to float beats according to master tempo, then offset each automation start of the amount you found... not very handy, so you might prefer the record to new clip technique..
ive made myself a simple usine patch patch that computes that for me, testing all vsts first in usine, but usually i just adjust by ears in live. ie one quick and efficient way, especially if you work a lot with quantized modulations in session view is that you draw a hardly 0-1 gated modulation of a simple gain utility on each 16th, then add your latency vst before utility, if there is high latency you will clearly hear how it affect the sound, messing the attack (use a tight 4/4 kick n bass loop to hear clearly), then go on the modulation and play with the start point, disable snap and shift it until you hear the automation is not sucking the attack anymore, note how much you offseted and report to all curves that need to be offseted (all device that are after the vst)..= doable but clearly pain, especially if setup is evolving over time via chains swiching in previous racks for exemple... If a full automatic system is not possible for soon versions, they should make at least a system that check Vst latencies, and allow users to add a 'autom-modulation-clock' read offset per DEVICE, so user could at least manually adjust to get it all tight without entering all automated single lanes, wich is just insane nightmare..this would work like track offset, but would allow modulation/automation/clock proper compensation.

nopattern
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by nopattern » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:23 pm

mholloway wrote:I've never had any issues because of it, but it certainly is a regular entry on the shit-list of Ableton Haters in other forums.

-M
this is not on the shit-list of ableton haters. it's from people who work with Live and need it to work correctly to do their job. the "shit list" category is a perception from seeing it so much because it's a real issue

RD444
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by RD444 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:54 am

nopattern wrote:
mholloway wrote:I've never had any issues because of it, but it certainly is a regular entry on the shit-list of Ableton Haters in other forums.

-M
this is not on the shit-list of ableton haters. it's from people who work with Live and need it to work correctly to do their job. the "shit list" category is a perception from seeing it so much because it's a real issue
correct its a real issue

A sequencer should sequence in time?
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

pencilrocket
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pencilrocket » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:20 am

I think this is inevitable in any host. Tell us what sequencers have its solution and how they would avoid. Just shift the automation to meke it sound fine. Use your ear as DJs doing. Nothing difficult.
Image

RD444
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by RD444 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:10 pm

pencilrocket wrote:I think this is inevitable in any host. Tell us what sequencers have its solution and how they would avoid. Just shift the automation to meke it sound fine. Use your ear as DJs doing. Nothing difficult.
incorrect

what..... every time you add or remove a plug in the chain ...automatically allign automation to the grid WTF

Why not do away with the grid altogether if we are not using it (no quantise or time signature)

IT stupid to think LIVE cant KEEP THINGS IN TIME in this day and age

ALL other SEQUENCERS DO 100%!
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

petit nuage
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by petit nuage » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:45 pm

@ RD 444 / + 10000000 !!!!

plus IMHO it can affect clearly the summing sound of the master bus and create this muddy,fuzzy sound that a lot of people attribute to audio engine, summing etc...

IMO itS the main cause which lot of people complainS about live sound quality compared to others daws ...
you lose the timing with micros fluctuations so the consequence its this sound ... which resulting the offsetting of the arrangements : clashes of frequencies appears...


wich is normally avoided if your arrangements are rights and your timing/latency is fixed/solid but with these fluctuations in timing , frequences begins to fight...
when i disable delay compensation it becomes clearly obvious for me in some tracks...and unfortunately more often than i was thinking .


since ive discovered that, i understand better the differences in timing that i feel almost insconciously between live and my akai mpc 2kxl
its timing/latency its always the same and dont fluctuate...so you can trust it !!!
in one word :ROCK SOLID !!!


I cant imagine that ableton dont fix that for the next version...
if it would be the case , i think clearly that i will not update and go to bitwig or studio one for mixing... unfortunately ...
Last edited by petit nuage on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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