No delay compensation for Automation??

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
pencilrocket
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pencilrocket » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:41 pm

Don't pro do mastering on Live? Aren't you thinking Logic never requires user to nudge automations to align the tempo at all?
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fx23
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:16 pm

serious pro do not master in live, mainly cause of SRC but PDC problems too and i guess most still do this on PT.

again it's not because your neighboor does a bad thing you are allowed to do so. again we shouldn't care of competitors (AND PT DOES COMPENSATE). there is a serious problem, it's has been

identified since V5, we just ask it to be fixed and pushed back in high priority cause tightness is priority, what's wrong with that for you?

petit nuage
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by petit nuage » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:25 pm

mastering its not the same because its JUST ONE track and the sync issue its not as crucial as for mixing i think.
ok there must be also an offset with by exple complex fx chains or linear phases eq or things like that but it offset just this, ONE main mastering stereo track, and offset all the data with the same amount so this is predictable and you can more easily deal with and fix that .

when you have to deal with 20 and more tracks, even less sometimes, it becomes very problematic, trust me .
plus, in ableton you cannot knowing the exact latency introduced by 3rd parties plugs so if i must ,each time:
reading the plug's manual, sending a mail to the company, making some math's addition, or tweaking track delay to death ...what a great time saver and its very interesting to keep a dynamic and quick workflow which is normally live's strengh :wink: .


its just my point of view ,and i dont know logic but for me its a serious issue for a professional daw .
Last edited by petit nuage on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

RD444
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by RD444 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:37 pm

petit nuage wrote:mastering its not the same because its JUST ONE track and the sync issue its not as crucial as for mixing i think.
ok there must be also an offset with by exple complex fx chains or linear phases eq or things like that but it offset just this, ONE main mastering stereo track, and offset all the data with the same amount so this is predictable and you can more easily deal with and fix that .

when you have to deal with 20 and more tracks, even less sometimes, it becomes very problematic, trust me .
plus, in ableton you cannot knowing the exact latency introduced by 3rd parties plugs so if i must ,each time, reading the plug's manual or sending a mail to the company ...what a great time saver and its very interesting to keep a dynamic and quick workflow which is normally live's strengh :wink: .


its just my point of view ,and i dont know logic but for me its a serious issue for a professional daw .

true it does take the shine off LIVE knowing that the timing is always constantly changing to out of time, as I develop a project.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

pencilrocket
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pencilrocket » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:03 pm

petit nuage wrote:mastering its not the same because its JUST ONE track and the sync issue its not as crucial as for mixing i think.
But he think pros aren't using Live for their project because he realized the latency while he is 'mastering'.
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fx23
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:27 pm

if you speak about me i realized this when i discoved several years ago the true reason of the offset feature you find on quasi all live plugins, simply droping an autopan after a vst on a track and having a way out of sync result. first i said myself, oh cool we can manually compensate and make creative stuff. but wait, what for device (3rd party) that don't have offset?
then you draw the equivalent modulation and you start to understand what 'Plugin Delay Compensation' stands for.

beatmunga
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by beatmunga » Sat May 12, 2012 8:32 am

I use most of the major DAWs for Mac and I'm late to the Live party.

Desperately trying to finish my first arranged project in Live today, and came across this problem.

For all the fun of playing around with scenes etc in the early stages of the tune, my workflow has now ground to a halt due to horrendously audible timing issues on filter automation.

The fanboys making excuses for this are frankly ludicrous

Like I said in another thread:
beatmunga wrote: Ableton Live is the most awesome platform for quickly getting tunes to nearly finished that exists in the market today.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

Jekblad
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Jekblad » Sat May 12, 2012 2:18 pm

Can u export a rough mix (or portion) so I can hear this terrible timing? I've made many tracks in live without issue, maybe I'm listening for the wrong thing?
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent

anybody human
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by anybody human » Sat May 12, 2012 2:29 pm

beatmunga wrote:I use most of the major DAWs for Mac and I'm late to the Live party.

Desperately trying to finish my first arranged project in Live today, and came across this problem.

For all the fun of playing around with scenes etc in the early stages of the tune, my workflow has now ground to a halt due to horrendously audible timing issues on filter automation.

The fanboys making excuses for this are frankly ludicrous

Like I said in another thread:
beatmunga wrote: Ableton Live is the most awesome platform for quickly getting tunes to nearly finished that exists in the market today.
It's simply has to get fixed. It's gotta happen, in my opinion.

beatmunga
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by beatmunga » Sat May 12, 2012 5:46 pm

Jekblad wrote:Can u export a rough mix (or portion) so I can hear this terrible timing? I've made many tracks in live without issue, maybe I'm listening for the wrong thing?
Not going to bandy my music around Jekblad but to give an example I had a perfectly quantised breakpoint (made by using the enable loop + drag automation line) where the auto filter (applied to a return) should perform a high pass sweep at the end of a breakdown, and kick back in with all the bottom end when the main beat returns. Textbook House by numbers. Well, the filter was kicking back in almost a 16th before the beat was, despite the breakpoints being perfectly quantised, ruining that sudden impact, and making an unpleasant glitch in the bottom end.

My buffer size was at 512 - decreasing it moved the glitch a bit closer to the beat but never near enough not to be noticeable.

Ableton freely acknowledge such drastic timing issues with automation in Live:
[nis] wrote:Hi folks, automation data are not (and have never been) delay-compensated in Live. We know that this isn't an ideal solution, but that's the way it is right now. There are however several PDC improvements planned for future versions, so this is likely going to change one day. I can't promise anything, though (as always).

Best,
Nico
And, from the manual:

"Note: there are a few situations in which Live cannot compensate for plug-in delay: • Automation is not delay compensated. As a result, when using automation on tracks that contain devices that cause delays, the automation may sound early."

In the end I got round it by locking all the automation in place and manually shifting all the arrange clips a bit late by an equivalent amount., with a fair bit of trial and error. Luckily the track was finished so this won't cause problems with snap values later on, but this is a ridiculous workaround for a DAW that costs considerably more than all the competition.

This problem may be rarer than hen's teeth at your end, but it has reared its head on my very first Live project, and the kind of thing I'm trying to achieve with filters isn't asking too much: its about as ubiquitous in modern electronic music production as auto tune these days.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

fx23
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Sat May 12, 2012 6:29 pm

i pray 4 soon, facing the pb in very hard and unsolvable manner once more :(

got a pre mix with bunch of tracks, then i need to apply a time synced fx on the group, quite a classic scenario imo. in subtracks i got/need latency 3rdparty fx, like a lin eq on bass to keep it clean and in phase, or a buffered reverse fx on kick,ect. i didn't automate too much cause im aware of the issue, so the audio result out of group is coherent and in sync with the rest.but.. as soon the time fx is enabled on top of the group.. woa..timing fiesta. the on beat things even become off beat now.
i didn't remember it affects all the hierarchy.i thought groups would have kind of rendered point with reported latency.
sorry but pfff this issue ;;,:,!kçè_çà(-è- really hard, how can it still be.

Jekblad
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Jekblad » Sat May 12, 2012 6:40 pm

I would bounce/freeze flatten any section in question and then apply fx on a new channel.

With a return track indeed this can be a pain.
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent

fx23
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Sat May 12, 2012 6:45 pm

the pb is when let's say you work for a long piece of live of 1h, and are in the creative phase and need to constantly adjust, get back ect , what a pain

or/and mostly : want a non static stuff you dynamically alter when playing live, ie raise the cutoff of the bass wich is followed by the lin eq,

man simply can't render, and in this case there are no solutions to the issue.

pedx1ng
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pedx1ng » Sun May 13, 2012 12:20 am

I was looking at some other DAWs and I couldn't find anything concrete to suggest that any had sample accurate delay compensation for automation. In fact I found one post* by someone at the REAPER forums saying that a flaw in the VST 2.4 spec prevents sample accurate automation. I don't know if that is true or not and it was the first time I read that.

REAPER at least does do delay compensation on automation, it just isn't sample accurate.

It seems strange to me that this is not a solved problem in 2012, but I'm not a coder or audio engineer so I don't know all of the issues involved.

* here is a link to the post I mentioned http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p= ... ostcount=5

beatmunga
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by beatmunga » Sun May 13, 2012 7:29 am

pedx1ng wrote:I was looking at some other DAWs and I couldn't find anything concrete to suggest that any had sample accurate delay compensation for automation.
They may not have, but if the timing problem is so small that no-one notices, musicians will be happy.
pedx1ng wrote:It seems strange to me that this is not a solved problem in 2012, but I'm not a coder or audio engineer so I don't know all of the issues involved.
I am shite at maths and even I worked out the basic principal of 'lock automation and nudge everything else a bit late' outlined above. Surely we can't entertain the notion that a software house reknowned for it's industry leading realtime time stretching algorithms can't even work that one out?

No, I'm afraid that this started as an oversight back in the days when Ableton were on the up, but now it is purely down to them not having the resources to sort it out, as it has been moaned about for years. Must be highly embarrassing for them, particularly when artists like Deadmau5 are even moaning about it.

Not a good reflection on the future of the company.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

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