No delay compensation for Automation??

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Khazul
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Khazul » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:04 am

If they cant do anything about it, then at least providing some information about overall track delay to the currently selected plugin (maybe in status bar?), or the whole track would help. At least then you would know what starting manual adjustment to make.

The other thing is that automation may simply not be accurate enough for useful compensation to be applied. I didn't think it was updated at audio rate anyway, but maybe updated about once per ms?

While auto compensation may still help a bit in tracks with extreme delays, it probably wont help with situations where a glitch is getting through due to catching some fraction of a ms of audio that you didn't want. I suspect that if/when Ableton get around to 'fixing' this, we may see a considerable rise in CPU use by automations and of course it probably wont fix it for M4L devices as I believe they are update rate limited as well.

TBH slow update automation isn't in itself a problem, unless that slow update is both not compensated and not clock (and ideally groove) quantised so with M4L devices that drive automation of other devices I have often need to 'micro-quantise' the automation changes to prevent glitches, but even that doesn't always help due to clocks not being compensated.

So clocks not being compensated means even quantizing automation is not a possible work-around. Additionally some plugins including instruments are not correctly audio-delay compensated, never mind those that might do 2x oversample internally. Simpler for eg needs a 1 sample delay for its sample to exactly match the timing of that same audio in an audio track.
Nothing to see here - move along!

theslowrevolt
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by theslowrevolt » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:24 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:Actually, you are wrong about the buffer setting. Having a shorter buffer will reduce the problems with automation pdc.

Deciding that something is a fault rather than a quirk changes nothing. The tool works the way it does. Figure out how to use it the way it works right now, or use something else.
I'm quite aware that lower buffer settings = better automation coherence between the gui and the audio.. i was merely trying to arrive at a consistent approach that I might be able to use, that could accommodate all the demands a session might present, illustrating that there isn't really a satisfactory way to work with it.

I discovered this 'quirk' when i was quite a way through many many detailed projects, where the automation is key to subtle but fundamental shifts in the sound design. I increased my audio buffer as my track count increased and realised that something was askew, searched for a reason why and eventually found these threads. I now have the frustrating task of picking through heavily layered projects to with little time to do so. This is a waste of time. There's no argument that it's bad design, making a noise about it IS worth it in the sense that, alongside imploring mails to the company it may move it higher on the priority list for future version fixes.

But by the sound of what Khazul is saying above, it's quite a minefield for the programmers...

kayhel
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by kayhel » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:32 pm

leisuremuffin wrote: Deciding that something is a fault rather than a quirk changes nothing. The tool works the way it does. Figure out how to use it the way it works right now, or use something else.
I didn't buy a tool. I didn't want a tool. I did buy an expensive DAW promising proper PDC. At a _later_ stage ableton said it is not compensating automation delay.
<<The tool works the way it does>> Thats a joke isn't it?

If I buy layout software I expect that the printout looks like the arrangement on the screen - right?. "WYSIWYG" follows user expectation. If not it's crab.
I think I have a valid requirement when I expect that the generated audio is corresponding to the notes and the automation on the timeline.
In live it does not. This is basic stuff that is not working. It's a major bug. I do not accept workarounds for this.

If I buy a car, I expect it to steer at the same time when I turn the steering wheel - not later, not earlier. Turning the wheel earlier as a workaround is no option. Sorry.
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leisuremuffin
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:16 pm

It really doesn't matter how you frame it. You have the following options:

1 - Figure out how to use the software the way it is.

2 - Use something else.

3 - Sit around, thumbs up ass waiting for it to be fixed.



Believe it or not, some musicians are able to use live to make music just the way it is now. Some were able to do so before any PDC was even a feature at all.
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ze2be
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by ze2be » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:15 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:It really doesn't matter how you frame it. You have the following options:

1 - Figure out how to use the software the way it is.

2 - Use something else.

3 - Sit around, thumbs up ass waiting for it to be fixed.

Believe it or not, some musicians are able to use live to make music just the way it is now. Some were able to do so before any PDC was even a feature at all.
Yup, there you have it folks. There is no point in complaining about whats not working as it should, and if you do your a twat. Exept it, shut up, or get lost.

:?

leisuremuffin
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:26 pm

Complain all you want.
I'm simply telling you the truth about how to make music or not.

If you want to know if i think you're a twat or not that's more complicated. Some people manage to complain without being twats, some don't. I'm sure you think I'm a twat, that's very clear. But I'm a twat who's writing music without making excuses based on what i have to work with. See, I can remember when it was too expensive for the average musician to use computers for the editing, recording, playback and manipulation of audio. To me, shit is amazing right now. If you want to make anything, i suggest to try to get into that headspace for yourself. It's a nice place to be.
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stringtapper
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by stringtapper » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:40 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:It really doesn't matter how you frame it. You have the following options:

1 - Figure out how to use the software the way it is.

2 - Use something else.

3 - Sit around, thumbs up ass waiting for it to be fixed.
So both thumbs?

I'm going to go through your steps when I get home and I want to make sure I get it right.

Thanks.
Unsound Designer

leisuremuffin
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:42 pm

you can try your whole hand if you want, i can never make it past my middle knuckles though.

edit, wait, knuckles isn't the right word, i mean the second joint of the fingers. I def can't make it to the knuckles.
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H20nly
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by H20nly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:46 pm

theslowrevolt wrote:I discovered this 'quirk' when i was quite a way through many many detailed projects, where the automation is key to subtle but fundamental shifts in the sound design. I increased my audio buffer as my track count increased and realised that something was askew, searched for a reason why and eventually found these threads. I now have the frustrating task of picking through heavily layered projects to with little time to do so.
can you record the output before the automation goes to hell to a new audio track so that you can do a kind of reset from the last good state?

kayhel
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by kayhel » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:38 pm

H20nly wrote:
theslowrevolt wrote:I discovered this 'quirk' when i was quite a way through many many detailed projects, where the automation is key to subtle but fundamental shifts in the sound design. I increased my audio buffer as my track count increased and realised that something was askew, searched for a reason why and eventually found these threads. I now have the frustrating task of picking through heavily layered projects to with little time to do so.
can you record the output before the automation goes to hell to a new audio track so that you can do a kind of reset from the last good state?
For sure,

that's what I did with my songs that didn't get finished in life. render tracks into studio one -> add all fx in studio one -> do all automation in studio one.
Works perfectly.
Workflow is however bad.

You could also (freeze/flatten) in live (without the automation). Depending on delay of you insert fx that needs automation it will require you to disable/remove these fx devices before freeze/flatten.
If you then add them to the rendered track again and want to do the automation - hey, the problem is back. If you are lucky, the delay is less, meaning automation is not that early as before. But it's still there. You may feel it sounds better, but my expectation is to have it exactly. This is not possible in live.

@leisuremuffin:
You are lucky when you use live without any plugins causing delay in your tracks. I assume most people will add fx introducing delays. _All_ external plugins cause delays because of the buffer settings in live. Mind that even the live builtin compressor with lookahead enabled will add delay. Chained channels / submixing will increase overall delay.
Be aware that not all musicians have the same demands on soundquality - personally I don't wanna sound like in the early 90s, I like to have every single instrument on it's dedicated position. No muddy stuff but still a lot of foreground and loudness. This requires _heavy_ use of 3rd party plugins (i.e. ozone per channel...) and a lot of automation, sidechained compressors etc.
I would assume there are a very very few songs out there that do not have the automation PDC issue.
Maybe the delay is low - you don't hear it - you are happy.
Maybe you ignore it and accept muddy sound.
Maybe you accept re-adjusting automation all time.
Otherwise - you are dissatisfied.

I hope i could clarify that there is a need for proper PDC these days. And just because you don't need it doesn't mean that all other musicians are too stupid for making music and using live.
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leisuremuffin
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:32 pm

i use a lot of plugins, and i use automation.
However, i don't make music that is *based* on the automation of plugins or tempo synced plugins. I usually play most of the automation in with controllers rather than drawing on screen.
I haven't run into a crippling problem with the way live works currently, but of course you may work in an entirely different way.

you can listen to clips of my upcoming ep and judge for yourself if it sounds ok, the only software used was ableton live:

http://thebunkerny.bandcamp.com/
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leisuremuffin
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:40 pm

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that automation not being compensated would cause muddy sound, either. It will mean that change in parameters will be delayed, not that the actual output of the plugin will be delayed. You may be slightly confused.
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pencilrocket
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pencilrocket » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:22 am

kayhel wrote:I didn't buy a tool. I didn't want a tool. I did buy an expensive DAW promising proper PDC. At a _later_ stage ableton said it is not compensating automation delay.
<<The tool works the way it does>> Thats a joke isn't it?

If I buy layout software I expect that the printout looks like the arrangement on the screen - right?. "WYSIWYG" follows user expectation. If not it's crab.
I think I have a valid requirement when I expect that the generated audio is corresponding to the notes and the automation on the timeline.
In live it does not. This is basic stuff that is not working. It's a major bug. I do not accept workarounds for this.

If I buy a car, I expect it to steer at the same time when I turn the steering wheel - not later, not earlier. Turning the wheel earlier as a workaround is no option. Sorry.
IIRC they added the lines of the explanation in the manual about that PDC won't work for automation. If you bought this software before that I think you would have contacted them about it as soon as you realized that it won't compensate plugindelay for automations. You could have refund or something. But if you just kept using and crying in the forum you are not qualified to to say that.
Live Manual - 16.5
Note: there are a few situations in which Live cannot compensate for plug-in delay: • Automation is not delay compensated. As a result, when using automation on tracks that contain devices that cause delays, the automation may sound early
Image

kayhel
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by kayhel » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:11 am

pencilrocket wrote: IIRC they added the lines of the explanation in the manual about that PDC won't work for automation. If you bought this software before that I think you would have contacted them about it as soon as you realized that it won't compensate plugindelay for automations. You could have refund or something. But if you just kept using and crying in the forum you are not qualified to to say that.
At live8 times I got written confirmation from ableton that audio engine will be rewritten in the next major release to solve this. So I kept the product. Nowadays they say that they are aware but cannot promise the solution anymore.
Thatswhy i keep on complaining.
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kayhel
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by kayhel » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:18 am

leisuremuffin wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that automation not being compensated would cause muddy sound, either. It will mean that change in parameters will be delayed, not that the actual output of the plugin will be delayed. You may be slightly confused.
if instrument volume adjustments are not in time (i.e. lower instrument volume on vocals start and the other way around etc.), the maximizer plugins in the master will maximize more loud instruments - which will cause muddy sound.
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