No delay compensation for Automation??

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
H20nly
Posts: 15850
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by H20nly » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:13 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:
H20nly wrote:in terms of the number of asses moved to dance... do those electronic styles hope to compete with tried and true styles such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVnfVUWiBTU

:?:

Come on, dude, the polka dance is gone. But the polka dot lives on...............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G62rN_mFfFw
(make sure you give this clip a chance, the acid kicks in at around 2:45 or so)
oh snap! :lol:

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:15 pm

and by the way, thank god for the polka, for along with the waltz and some other german forms it created the fertile bed for this amazing music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjTgXDGoza0



Who doesn't love the fucking accordion???
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 pm

String, forgive me, it's just that I write music that is somewhat part of the very long and very wide traditions of both dance and electronic music and i cringe when i read opinions that are dismissive of those traditions. I do take it a little bit personally, you know? It seems like there's a lot of people that think that dance music and electronic music both started in the 1990's and are only certain things when in truth electronic music has been around as long as electricity and dance music for as long as people have been able to dance. I'm not saying that you're that ignorant, but i will admit that your first post got under my skin and annoyed me a little bit.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

stringtapper
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by stringtapper » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:43 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:String, forgive me, it's just that I write music that is somewhat part of the very long and very wide traditions of both dance and electronic music and i cringe when i read opinions that are dismissive of those traditions. I do take it a little bit personally, you know? It seems like there's a lot of people that think that dance music and electronic music both started in the 1990's and are only certain things when in truth electronic music has been around as long as electricity and dance music for as long as people have been able to dance. I'm not saying that you're that ignorant, but i will admit that your first post got under my skin and annoyed me a little bit.
I understand. It's the stuffy academic in me that tends to put down dance music, but I don't mean to offend. I've listened to and written my fair share of it.

In fact my reason for specifically calling out electronic dance music is precisely because the electronic music tradition is so much more broad, especially in terms of the use of musical parameters outside of the conventional note-based paradigms (e.g. timbral manipulation, spectral morphing, etc.). I'm talking about electroacoustic music mostly here, although the lines are less and less rigidly defined.

So no offense meant and all good.

:)
Unsound Designer

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:58 pm

no problem, man. I totally understand. But you know, there are all sorts of threads that connect those worlds. For instance, I think you could listen to ?lhan Mimaro?lu's rubber band piece, "bowery bum" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flDXiFWpkww and see a line from that to the T++ space pong track pretty easily.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

stringtapper
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by stringtapper » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:20 pm

Absolutely. And the connections always seem to be more apparent than between other related types of art and pop music (e.g. classical period and rock). Probably because the technical processes involved are often distinct and very unique to certain technologies.

And thanks, I wasn't aware of Mimaro?lu. Always good to hear non-Western electroacoustic composers.

Halim El-Dabh comes to mind:

Wire Recorder Piece (1944)
Unsound Designer

re:dream
Posts: 4585
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by re:dream » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:03 am

This is way off topic, but still an interesting discussion...

My impression is that dance music is a bit like writing haiku: very tighly defined in form, very simple rules, incredibly easy to do badly, but really difficult to do well.

(I have in fact more or less stopped trying to make dance music for that reason.)

I think one of the things that complicates discussions about dance music is that people confuse and conflate complexity with quality.

The dance music producers I admire (Atmos, Son Kite/Minilogue, Deepfunk, Daniel Vernunft) make music that is in many ways enormously simple - but the simplicity does not mean that it is not subtle. Rather, they have an exquisite sense of style and form, and can communicate simple ideas in ways that make them feel fresh and commanding.

And - back on topic - no way do you need tons of third party plugins to make that music. You need good ideas and you need the mixing and mastering experience to know how to bring them across effectively.

Just my two cents.

stringtapper
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by stringtapper » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:41 pm

The Finn wrote:You need good ideas
This was my real point earlier. I of all people should have known better than to specify the "melody/harmony/rhythm" part that sent me and lm down that rabbit hole.
Unsound Designer

re:dream
Posts: 4585
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by re:dream » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:52 pm

These darn rabbit holes. They are everywhere 8O

ze2be
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:17 am
Location: Europe

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by ze2be » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:40 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:Complain all you want.
I'm simply telling you the truth about how to make music or not.

If you want to know if i think you're a twat or not that's more complicated. Some people manage to complain without being twats, some don't. I'm sure you think I'm a twat, that's very clear. But I'm a twat who's writing music without making excuses based on what i have to work with. See, I can remember when it was too expensive for the average musician to use computers for the editing, recording, playback and manipulation of audio. To me, shit is amazing right now. If you want to make anything, i suggest to try to get into that headspace for yourself. It's a nice place to be.
Im an old bastard like you, and I honestly dont think your a twat. Your an old timer around here that ive come to respect. Just sayin this additude here, now, is a bit dickish. Thats all.

Im at a bar getting drunk. Nothing to see here, move along.

ze2be
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:17 am
Location: Europe

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by ze2be » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:35 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:you can try your whole hand if you want.
:lol:
Late to the table obviously, but this killed me.

tone61
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:09 am

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by tone61 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:10 am

Can someone describe a simple way how to test the effects of PDC?

I made a liveset in Live9.1.1 with some automation. Recorded the output of midi tracks to audio tracks and all notes were in exactly the correct places.
And didn't notice automation being much off either.
So, what kind of things must be included so that sound gets out of sync? Do you need to have a huge number of effects or is the problem hardly noticably if you have just a couple of effects after an instrument?

In first posts of this thread from 2012 someone wrote that PDC would be improved, but has this really happened?
Is the situation still what it was before Live9 was released?

fishmonkey
Posts: 4232
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:11 am

it's well described in numerous threads, e.g.:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=160107

tone61
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:09 am

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by tone61 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:57 am

fishmonkey wrote:it's well described in numerous threads, e.g.:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=160107
Thanks. The latest comment there is from June 2013.
Does someone know if the latest versions of Live9 have included any improvements to PDC or are we still in the same situation?

fishmonkey
Posts: 4232
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:03 pm

it's the same. have a look at the end of Chapter 17 in the Live 9 User Manual (and you can easily verify it for yourself, there are plenty of examples in the various threads about PDC).

Post Reply