Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

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Mr D
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Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Mr D » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:12 pm

I'm messing around with grooves and groove extraction for the first time.

I've checked the manual but see no explanation of what exactly happens when you extract a groove.

Say, for example, i have a 4 bar hi-hat clip which i played in live. Imagine that some of the hi-hat hits a played were bang in time, and some others were very loose and sloppy. When i extract a groove from this clip, what does the software do? Make a measurement of the average timing? or........?

Any ideas?!

Forge.
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Forge. » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:23 pm

you can drag any groove file into session or arrange - it's just like a MIDI clip, but only on one note because it only reads velocity and timing basically.

ze2be
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by ze2be » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:27 pm

When you have extracted a groove file, you can drag it back into the project, and it will show up as a midi file. Now you can see exactly what has happened. It creates midi notes with velocity based on the transients.

What I would like to know is what happens when there are some scilent notes in the groove pattern?
Example: extracting a groove from some live recorded shake. If this shake is not constantly 16th notes. Lets say the first beat is just one note while the rest of the bar is 16ths. When using this as a groove file on say a hihat bar with continualy 16ths, what happens to the first 4 notes in the bar? I mean for this groove to work proparly, one must likely add those notes into the groove file which are missing?

doghouse
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by doghouse » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:14 pm

The extracted grove merely represents where strong and weak beats lie within the bar.

Real drummers and bassists are not metronomic, they tend to move ahead of and behind the beat in spots. Groove extraction analyzes that and shifts the timing and velocity of your tracks to mimic that.

Mr D
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Mr D » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:40 pm

doghouse wrote:The extracted grove merely represents where strong and weak beats lie within the bar.

Real drummers and bassists are not metronomic, they tend to move ahead of and behind the beat in spots. Groove extraction analyzes that and shifts the timing and velocity of your tracks to mimic that.
OK, but what happens when you extract the "groove" from a 4 bar clip with timing that's loose and all over the place, and apply that groove to a one bar clip? Does it only use the first bar of groove from the source clip? ....or.......?

Vios
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Vios » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:22 pm

When Ableton Live extracts a groove, it basically measures how much you're off on each beat from being perfectly in time. Than when you apply it to another midi track it moves the notes the same amount that you are off in the groove. So let's say you hit a snare 2ms late at 1.2.1. If you extract that groove and apply it to a bassline that is perfectly in time, it will move the bass note at 1.2.1 2ms later.

There are quantization parameters that you can play with as well, which allow you to tell Live which notes it should be comparing your groove to. If you hit a note 1/32 too late, you probably don't want Live thinking the note should be played there. 1/16 is typically a good setting.

Mr D
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Mr D » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:28 pm

Vios wrote:When Ableton Live extracts a groove, it basically measures how much you're off on each beat from being perfectly in time. Than when you apply it to another midi track it moves the notes the same amount that you are off in the groove. So let's say you hit a snare 2ms late at 1.2.1. If you extract that groove and apply it to a bassline that is perfectly in time, it will move the bass note at 1.2.1 2ms later.

There are quantization parameters that you can play with as well, which allow you to tell Live which notes it should be comparing your groove to. If you hit a note 1/32 too late, you probably don't want Live thinking the note should be played there. 1/16 is typically a good setting.
Thanks but this still doesn't address my point precisely. I understand the concept of using the groove of one part to swing another part........but what if you use a clip (to extract from) that has different amounts of swing on various beats? How does Ableton choose which swing value to use for the destination clip? Does it take the average? ......or is it position based?...like (for example): it takes the swing of the 16th notes after beat 3 on bar 3, and applies that to the 16th notes after beat 3 on bar 3 on the destination clip?

Forge.
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Forge. » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:42 am

Mr D wrote:... this still doesn't address my point precisely. I understand the concept of using the groove of one part to swing another part........but what if you use a clip (to extract from) that has different amounts of swing on various beats? How does Ableton choose which swing value to use for the destination clip? Does it take the average? ......or is it position based?...like (for example): it takes the swing of the 16th notes after beat 3 on bar 3, and applies that to the 16th notes after beat 3 on bar 3 on the destination clip?
it's position based - i.e. if there is no beat playing where there was one in the groove file nothing will happen and vice versa.

If you really want to know how the original groove sounds, just drag in the groove file and copy the notes to different drum hits so you can hear it. That way you will get an idea of whether that groove is ideal for your pattern

eg. - if you extract a groove from the Amen break, it's probably not the right groove for a straight 8

Mr D
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Mr D » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:25 am

Thanks Forge.

If that's how it works, then that's amazingly cool. You could have sixteen bars with subtle deviations of swing throughout, then apply that to all clips during that sixteen bars, thus having everything locked tightly together (no unwanted flaming [as in, drum flam]) while keeping your swing variations.

Gonna experiment with it some more in the next few days!

Forge.
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Forge. » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:53 am

no probs

actually I would really appreciate any further questions, or just for you to share your discoveries as you go

I am making a short mini-tutorial series on the groove feature and because your thread brought it up I might do that one next.

as you play with the groove feature, I'd be grateful if you could let me know any thoughts you have on it - things you think would be helpful when explaining it, or examples of it.

cheers
craig

mharris
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by mharris » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:06 am

Vios wrote:So let's say you hit a snare 2ms late at 1.2.1. If you extract that groove and apply it to a bassline that is perfectly in time, it will move the bass note at 1.2.1 2ms later.
This is a great explanation, but where does velocity come in to it.. A captured groove contains the timing and velocity in a midi file. So how does the velocity affect the source material when the groove is applied?

Mr D
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Mr D » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:08 am

Yeah, Vios, thanks as well!

ze2be
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by ze2be » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:26 am

Forge, I got one for you: How to work with, and what happens when adding grooves on polyphonic loose played cords. Say a guitar cord where 3 notes are very close together. And how to extract a groove from a loose played polyphonic recording. Tom Waits drummer, etc.

Forge.
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by Forge. » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:44 am

ze2be wrote:Forge, I got one for you: How to work with, and what happens when adding grooves on polyphonic loose played cords. Say a guitar cord where 3 notes are very close together. And how to extract a groove from a loose played polyphonic recording. Tom Waits drummer, etc.
thanks

- as far as I know it really is just based on timing and velocity, so I guess the question of the guitar chord would really come down to whether the 3 notes were triggered far enough apart that Live's detection algorithms could pick it up. But actually if you wanted to make sure that it did I think you could probably place warp markers on each of the three notes and try not to move them too much

I guess that could make a difference even if they were very close together, because their respective velocities would make a significant difference to the sound if they were MIDI notes triggering samples or synths.

I have no idea just how sensitive it is, and it'd be an interesting question to ask Ableton.

I have the same question regarding say kick and hi-hat triggered at exactly the same time - my assumption is that there's not much it could do about that and would just take the loudest velocity, presumably the kick..

definitely a point worth exploring! cheers

ze2be
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Re: Extracting a groove - what happens exactly?

Post by ze2be » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:44 pm

Theres very little explanation in the manual about Grooves, so im shore im not the only one looking forward to your tutorial. :)

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