Inserting part in song without tempo???

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Mr D
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Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by Mr D » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:01 am

Imagine this:

I'm making a dance track. At the moment it's just 3 minutes of non-stop groove / beats.

Suddenly i have an idea: after 30 seconds (so, at the end of bar 16) i want to go into a break down that's without any tempo or beat - just some spacey FX and vocal samples. After this goes on for (say) 20 seconds, i want to kick the groove back in.

What's the best way to achieve this? Obviously i can mess around with the tempo, but ideally i'd like to (after the beat-less breakdown) kick the groove back in at bar 17. I mean, what's the point of having bars during the beat-less section? And maybe later on i decide that the beat-less breakdown needs to be one second longer to increase the tension. Then i need to shift everything in the arrangement (after the break-down) to one second later.

Could anybody share some tips and tricks with these sorts of arrangement issues?

For example, in Nuendo you can just warp the whole grid.You just grab a bar line and drag a bar as long as you want, and everything else in the arrangement (that comes after) will move accordingly.

Many thanks! ....... Mr D.

3dot...
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by 3dot... » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:51 am

the breakdown is to create anticipation...for the groove to come back in one way or another..
don't get too caught up in bar/seconds ... if it sounds nice then it's alright..
that's the only test that should matter..
as a side note certain genres have been known to be more strict when timing is concerned .. other genres tend to be more loose...
so in house music for instance .. one would expect the beat to come back on time.. and in the same tempo +/- 10BPM..
that said .. you could construct your OWN groove using your OWN methods..
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Mr D
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by Mr D » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:15 pm

Thanks!

But i still don't see how to achieve the specific arrangement functionality i outlined.

To reiterate: i want to program a section (break-down) without tempo. Then i want to be able to say: "this is IT! - now the beat should kick back in right here!" Then i want to be able to have a new bar start right at that point. If i try to do this with tempo changes, i think things will get messy. (or not? - maybe there's a simple way to do it?)

Any ideas how to specifically achieve this?.....and also to have it be flexible so that i can later change the length of this breakdown without totally messing up the arrangement of everything that comes later?

Mr D.

3dot...
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by 3dot... » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:44 pm

oh ..I misunderstood

if it's warped audio you're using it might get messy..
otherwise.. not so much..

a simpler method would be to push everything (up to the break end/beat start) back proportionally ..
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Mr D
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by Mr D » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:00 pm

3dot... wrote: a simpler method would be to push everything (up to the break end/beat start) back proportionally ..
Thanks! I don't understand how you'd move the clips and also have the bar lines move!!!???

I just had a thought about a possible work-around: Is it possible to put a marker down somewhere, so that when the timeline (or playhead or whatever it's called) reaches that point it will jump to another marker later in the track? If so, then you could just do it like that and have some empty space at the end of the breakdown section.

3dot...
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by 3dot... » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:14 pm

Clyphx might be able to give similar functionality.....
http://beatwise.proboards.com/index.cgi ... thread=716

if you don't know it .. it's worth to..it's the mother of all workarounds..
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Mr D
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by Mr D » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:40 pm

OK, so from reading the manual it seems like the best way to achieve this would be with locators:

from the manual: "Locators can also be recalled using MIDI/key
mapping."


But it doesn't explain how.

So am i right in thinking that i could skip to a locator by triggering a midi note on a midi track?

That would solve my problem. Any idea how to set this up? (the manual doesn't explain!)

Thanks! ....... Mr D.

oddstep
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by oddstep » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:12 pm

surely all you want to do is
1)create spacehead section
2)copy it
3)insert into the arrangement by clicking on the timeline and selecting insert in the rightclick context menu.

Mr D
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by Mr D » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:44 pm

oddstep wrote:surely all you want to do is
1)create spacehead section
2)copy it
3)insert into the arrangement by clicking on the timeline and selecting insert in the rightclick context menu.
Thanks but that doesn't seem to have my desired effect. It moves the later stuff away from the bar lines (if you paste in an amount of time that isn't an exact multiple of bars)

I've got a feeling the locator strategy is the way to do it. Any idea how i assign a midi not on the arrange page to trigger a locator and skip to a later section?

oddstep
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by oddstep » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:54 pm

midi map mode on - click on locator, press midi note. i don't think that will solve your problem though... which seems to be all about bar markers on the timeline. could you change the time signature of the space section so that it is one really long (weird time signature) bar and then at the end change the time signature back to the usual 11/8 time, like the rest of the track :wink:
edit: i use arrange locators a lot when i am fishing a track off, but they aren't part of the mixdown to stereo audio file.

bosonHavoc
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by bosonHavoc » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:15 pm

This is awesome, and I think this will be your guide to perfection

http://www.angelfire.com/in2/yala/9mustool.htm

their is a mathematical formula to calculate length of bars based on clock time (of course)
and this page also has a chart too.

I'll try to get a tutorial ready for the next question that will soon follow.

Vios
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by Vios » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:26 pm

As far as creating a sound that tells the listener when to expect the bass drop, there are a lot of ways to do so. The most used in pop music today are white noise filter sweeps. Here are some ideas:

Sweeps, Whooshes, Builds – 3 Ways to make them

Ideas for Breakdowns and Buildups (1 Hour!)

In the second video, Tom Cosm adds some high hats and drums to "remind" the listener during the breakdown where they are in time with the track. I think you'll find it helpful, and it will give you some ideas.
Last edited by Vios on Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nathannn
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by nathannn » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:51 pm

for what he wants to do live needs tempo mapping.
live does not have tempo mapping.
so when you restart the song its going to look totally off on the grid.
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agent314
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by agent314 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:05 pm

If I understand your meaning, I think what you'll probably want to do is just keep things on the grid for timing purposes when you drop back in, but make the spacey-breakdown section freetime/unquantized

Listeners aren't going to know the difference unless they're actively counting along from the last bar, in which case, why are they doing that?

lethal_pizzle
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Re: Inserting part in song without tempo???

Post by lethal_pizzle » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:10 pm

It's also worth noting that, if this is meant for the dancefloor, you'll be annoying a lot of DJ's by going off-piste.

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