research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

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3dot...
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research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by 3dot... » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:20 pm

After some research I've found that these LIVE DEVICES do not PDC...
(when used on returns)
these devices add phasing when signal is dry ! Even if the device is TURNED OFF !
BEWARE !

-Amp/Cabinet : seperately
-Compressor : in anything other than 0ms mode.
and anything other than FB detection mode
-Corpus : "dry" does not phase cancel. also adds phasing to the returns..
-EQ8 in Hi-Quality mode (!!!)
-Ext.AudioFX
-Freq Shifter :delay compensated.. something wrong with the "dry" (very low wide-band noise )
-Gate (!!!)
-Limiter
-Max Audio FX
-MultiBand Dynamics: the device is compensated for delay... but something is up with the x-over ..dry does not phase cancel
- same for Overdrive.. the audio cancells out in a phase test when the device is off... but not when the signal is supposed to be dry..
-Reverb (supposedly something you'd want on a 'return'..)
-Saturator got the same phase thing going when the signal is "dry" but seems to be compensated for delays

besides these...
Live seems to be very problematic with 3rd party plugins..
having to find the right delay time and compensate accordingly..is nerver wrecking

always check that the dry signal coming out of the device phase cancells the sending signal...
if the dry signal is out of phase with the original...
it could take a lot of the power/harmonics (out of the signal)
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ze2be
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by ze2be » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:08 pm

Thanks for sharing all that!

I try to be very carefull with plugs. Working with "channel strip" racks with the same fx on every track, keeps the latency even between the tracks for the most basic effects. A track with lots of latency heavy plugs I usually render to audio, and corect the clip play position.

But this is likely a contributor to why large (48+ tracks) projects can sound muddier then small 12 track ones.

What kind of phasing problems are we talking about with reverb and delay on sends. Have you done any tests on that?
? ? ? ? ?

Khazul
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Khazul » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:31 pm

Weird.

Of your list I find only the following are not as the should be on dry or equiv:
Corpus - level mismatch - (bypass ok)
EQ8 - HQ mode adds uncompensated delay - (bypass ok)
Freq shifter - agree
Multiband - wrong filter q for crossovers - (bypass ok)
Eq3 - wrong filter q at flat - (bypass ok)
Overdrive - agree

Reverb, gate, limiter compressor all ok, however sometimes compressor will fail if you change it to 10 then back to 1 or 0

With that said, I have know for a long time that delay compensation can be a bit random at times especially with some 3rd party plugins (and even native plugins). Fine when you first add the plugin to a project, but Pdc gets forgotten or set wrong sometimes when you load the project later.

BTW - didn't check ext fx or max. Max patches should specify their compensation requirement - if they don't, then obvious none will be applied. For external fx - how did you test?
Nothing to see here - move along!

3dot...
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by 3dot... » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:54 pm

the test..
1 playing track ..0db routed to master
aux send at full...
return 0db..routed to master
on the return: utility phase inverted.
sound cancells.great!
drag in Reverb (after utility)..
0% wet.. sound does not cancel!!
turn reverb off..does not cancel!!!
delete reverb.. back to normal
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3dot...
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by 3dot... » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:55 pm

an empty max device..adds uncompensated delay
so does ext.fx
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obmun
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by obmun » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:29 pm

An EQ8, in hi-quality mode, has some kind of LPF with a very high cut freq (around 20 kHz or so), _even_ if all EQ bands are disabled. So, it won't cancel. Also, in hi-q exclusively, it's affecting input signal phase, specially from 1KHz onwards (for f < 700 Hz is almost undetectable), with a perfect phase cancellation around 16.6 kHz; once more, even with all EQ bands disabled. Probably the phase effects are due to the LPF.

Of course, given the freqs affected by phase distortion, I doubt it would have too much effect on the sound in the final mix. But worth noticing.

Angstrom
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Angstrom » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:53 pm

Quick note: all ableton "hiQ" devices (and the overdrive) have uncompensated delay in order to oversample. Any LPF parallel phase cancellation effect is due to that offset.

#2 PDC is inactive on return channels with their own send activated.

filterstein
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by filterstein » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:03 pm

if i remember correct, Live is not designed to be sample accurate.
That's why i expect phase issues in general when using live.
Also, not everything is compensated:
http://www.ableton.com/articles/automat ... ut-of-sync

3dot...
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by 3dot... » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:14 pm

Angstrom wrote:Quick note: all ableton "hiQ" devices (and the overdrive) have uncompensated delay in order to oversample. Any LPF parallel phase cancellation effect is due to that offset.

#2 PDC is inactive on return channels with their own send activated.
sends are disabled on the actual return tracks in my test..
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Palmer Eldritch
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:06 pm

Hi 3dot,

If you did your test while you are playing the sound live via keyboard (means your track is set to "monitor in" or is record enabled) then try to uncheck "reduced latency when monitoring" in the option menu (> since live 8.2.7 - before this version this was only possible via the "option.txt" file).

If this option is checked only the latency of devices which are inserted in those "monitoring" tracks come to count.

For what is this good for?:

Say you want to play a synth on track 1 but you have audio playing on track 2 where you have inserted a high latency plug-in, say with a latency of 1 second.
With this option unchecked you would have this 1 second latency also at that track where you try to play the synth and I think this would be very uncomfortable.
But with this option checked this "monitoring track" is no more corrected to the whole project latency and therefor out of sync to the returns. Also time based midi effects on those tracks (like arpeggiator) loosing sync against the other tracks.

Hopefully what I try to say is a little bit understandable. :|

Cheers, palmer
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

3dot...
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by 3dot... » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:38 pm

thanks palmer ..
but no... it was a midi clip..playing a drum-rack..
comprised of 3 'simpler' instances... no fx
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Palmer Eldritch
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Palmer Eldritch » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:48 pm

3dot... wrote: but no... it was a midi clip..playing a drum-rack..
Mhh, but maybe this track is record enabled while the clip is playing the rack?
Could you try to change the latency-monitoring option in the option menu and repeat the test?
Live 8_3_4 + 4b7_32+64 -Suite- Max4Live 5_1_9 _ core2DuoMacBook 2*2,16 Ghz + external FW HD _ OSX 10.6.8 _ 3G RAM _ M.H. MIO 2882 + 5.4d208 Driver _ Faderfox LV1 _ Akai MPK25 _ Logitec wheel mouse _______ PeacE will be the SOLution of LIVE

3dot...
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by 3dot... » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:06 pm

did it again.. this time with the track arm off.. same results
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Khazul
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Khazul » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:18 pm

I just dropped an audio loop in, stuck an effect rack on it, two chain - chain 1 plugin under test, chain 2 had a phase invert utility plugin - cant get much simpler.
Nothing to see here - move along!

3dot...
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by 3dot... » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:33 pm

Khazul wrote:I just dropped an audio loop in, stuck an effect rack on it, two chain - chain 1 plugin under test, chain 2 had a phase invert utility plugin - cant get much simpler.
in audio racks it seems to do compensate..(for those Live devices)
on return tracks.. not
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