research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Sean_Clarke
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Sean_Clarke » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:51 pm

Warning- Ableton have now taken to closing/locking 'critical' threads (see the thread on the new forum) so tread cerefully...!

I LOVE the new 'drift' effect on my tracks to make them sound less 'computerised' - it's like I have recorded tracks on several tape decks and then tried to press play on them all at the same time- such a cool retro effect- but just out of interest, how do you turn it off?
DAW: Cubase 8 & Live 9 Suit + Push, Bitwig Studio. Desk: X32: Instruments: guitars, v-drums, bass and Electron A4 & RYTM.

Tone Deft
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:07 pm

Sean_Clarke wrote:Warning- Ableton have now taken to closing/locking 'critical' threads (see the thread on the new forum) so tread carefully...!
8O link? it's early here. the Users Help Exchange?

wow.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

H20nly
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by H20nly » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:18 pm

^ the 'critical' thread he mentions is basically a bunch of folks saying that the new website sucks. a guy claiming to be an Ableton employee says, "but people on twitter like the site! so your opinions are invalid" and he also says, "no, we planned this degree of suck"...."only 10 people don't like it" & "the forum isn't PRO enough for me"

paraphrased of course.

then we all laughed, some typed... i'm sure someone was about to tell him his mother still dresses him, but David locked the thread because normally the truth hurts but this time.. the truth burns like a bad case of clap. sorry Ableton... your website looks like shit, but your moderator is on the ball.

anyway... please continue the regularly scheduled music related debacle on PDC.
i'd love to see if this goes anywhere.

Tone Deft
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:28 pm

ah, yeah, the critical threads.

it's interesting that this page is still up
https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/aut ... t-of-sync/

Live as a sketchpad and another DAW to Master.

if someone has more money invested in third party effects than Live costs, is Live worth it?
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

H20nly
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by H20nly » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:53 pm

H20nly wrote: then we all laughed, except funken...
fixed. go away.

H20nly
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by H20nly » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:03 pm

Tone Deft wrote:it's interesting that this page is still up
https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/aut ... t-of-sync/

Live as a sketchpad and another DAW to Master.

if someone has more money invested in third party effects than Live costs, is Live worth it?
8O i'm sure someone who has more money invested in 3rd party plugs would argue passionately that it is. yep, pretty sure they would argue that.

it would be interesting to know what the buffer sizes are set to for people having major PDC issues.

massenmedium
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by massenmedium » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:17 pm

Buffer size wouldn't have any bearing on off-line rendering would it?

Right - here's what the program needs to do - calculate the latency of the plugins in the track (assuming they report correctly) and add a delay to all automation and modulation on that track. Simple innit. Except it seems obvious that it's somehow not quite that simple. :(

Akshara
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Akshara » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:22 pm

Tone Deft wrote:if someone has more money invested in third party effects than Live costs, is Live worth it?
I have considered this question a lot, actually. On the whole, yes. There have been some great projects created and finished in Live, which didn't require tight timing, and which were influenced by Live's workflow a great deal - and from which the income exceeded the cost of Live Suite by far; and certain performances would have been next to impossible without Live at the core of things, and couldn't have been managed with the free or lite versions.

However, if I could go back, I would probably not have invested in the full Suite, since I rarely use the built-in devices or the sample library anymore. Mainly because they don't work in my main DAW. And that does feel a little bit like a waste of resources. Once I discovered what was going with the PDC issue, and how it was impacting my mixes, and that the workarounds weren't practical, what probably upset me the most was when I thought about having invested so much time toward learning and mastering Live, to then have to invest more money and time into another application. During that time, Live didn't feel like it was worth it.

So overall, yes. At certain times, no.

Tone Deft
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:38 pm

interesting and now there are more competitors in Live's arena for you to consider.

I don't do a lot of automation, when I do it's usually sends. I do have a project that fell apart when I replaced some of Live's effects with Uhbik plug ins.

with Live 9 having session view automation we're going to be tempted to do more automation, that won't bode well for sound quality. should they have done that or come out and said it's a bad idea due to PDC. same with Push, it's an automation creation machine.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

H20nly
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by H20nly » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:43 pm

massenmedium wrote:Buffer size wouldn't have any bearing on off-line rendering would it?
i'm not sure. i only made the comment about the buffer size based on the Ableton webpage that Tone Deft posted...
Ableton wrote:To get more accurate plug-in automation, freeze/flatten these tracks while using a plug-in buffer size of 32 samples.
this is their workaround ^

the thing about plugins is that they are made by a third party. so when you take that into account along with all the individual setups that users can have... there are a lot of variables.

Akshara
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by Akshara » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:16 pm

Tone Deft wrote:interesting and now there are more competitors in Live's arena for you to consider.
I have noticed this... yet would need to be really wOw'd though, before dumping the investment in Live altogether.
Tone Deft wrote:with Live 9 having session view automation we're going to be tempted to do more automation, that won't bode well for sound quality. should they have done that or come out and said it's a bad idea due to PDC. same with Push, it's an automation creation machine.
This is interesting too. That they even have Session View automation makes me hopeful that the infrastructure is there for PDC, yet just not implemented yet. It would be good to know if this is genuinely the case, or just wishful thinking.

Then again, maybe Live just isn't suited for certain genres of modern music production which rely on tempo based effects and precise rhythmic automation. I've done albums where we hit play on multiple reel-to-reel tape machines simultaneously, and they turned out just fine for the style of the project. Automation on an older Yamaha 02R isn't bang on ms precise either. Yet I wouldn't try to do a 2013 techno or trance project using asynchronous tape reels and an 02R.

pencilrocket
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:35 pm

I tested S1. The automation is surely compensated.
Image

justjohn_jj
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by justjohn_jj » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:09 pm

(This is one of those threads I'm going to want to look back at a few years from now* and adding a comment is the best way I can think of to be sure I can find it again.)

*for the main topic
* Radio Free Entropy: http://just-john.com/jjMusic

H20nly
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by H20nly » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:01 pm

justjohn_jj wrote:(This is one of those threads I'm going to want to look back at a few years from now* and adding a comment is the best way I can think of to be sure I can find it again.)

*for the main topic
i put *bookmark* in them too... that way i can do one search and get all the threads back that had a nugget i wanted to save for later. :wink:

dr.mysterium
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Re: research...These Live Devices do not compensate delays :

Post by dr.mysterium » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:12 pm

Properly Set up the Project, map your controllers, instruments, fx, clyphx- set routings.
Utilize your ears, hand eye coordination, freezing, racks, and esoteric experiences from forums.
Practice, then Perform your session/arrangement while automating live,
All the while running a 'Resampling' Audio Recording of this Performance.
(Usually of the Master Track, or any track, as needed, if usable)
Record midi and automations as well (live- see below) for making possible corrections.
If it sounds good and tight as you groove, the Recording of the output mix you hear, Is Also.
So your done. Send it to mastering.
If not, tweak the Program and project till its so,
then get back groovin' an re-record.
This is the method of the Groove Machine and needs no 'Plug-in Automation Delay Compensation'
Ableton excels at this, as it enables your computer to become a Groove Machine.

Recording Automations by 'Performing them Live' - IS Plug-in Automation Delay Compensation -IMHO
As long as you don't change anything around after-thus the importance of '1 Properly Setting Up Your Projects'
You are already adapting to these latency issues when you jam along with your groove.
Set your option.txt and preferences according to your needs. Know the system, it's intricate and delicate.
I intend this to be a tip, for those that rock
- not a condescension.
Love

Think OTB when working ITB. If it works live, then record live.
I am Dr. M. Solo artist, member of 86BiTz, host of the Perfect Glitch Show, & the Live Jam Video Stream. Music on Soundcloud and BandCamp. Jam Archive on Patreon•••• I master audio & produce video of all of the above as Tremendm Labs on YouTube.

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