Sound Difference Quality In Logic, Cubase and Live.

[sweetjesus]

A very interesting test involving some very professional engineers can be found here: http://www.3daudioinc.com/cgi-bin/ultim ... 9&t=000001

[siddhu]

Hi Robert,

Most of the books out there seem to rehash basic concepts but I would love to find sbook that deal with more "advanced" information and concepts.

What books can you recomend to us?

[raapie]

I am not Robert but I can recommend:
reading this pdf: http://www.cadenzarecording.com/images/ ... dither.pdf
and/or buy the book Digital Audio Explained ( http://www.cadenzarecording.com )

[3phase]

....2. Digital A versus Digital B....

In case 1 it is obvious that there are huge differences. An analog mixer contains some hundred transistors and each of them has a nonlinear transfer curve. The result is very complex distortion. On a good mixer some engineer did a great job adjsting the circuits in a way that this nonlinear behaviour sounds great. Also each D/A converter has an analog side and the same rules apply for it. Playing back a mix using one stereo converter will sound different from playing back each track with it`s own converter and then adding the resulting signal in a mixer.
We do not need to discuss here that there is a difference since this is obvious.

2. A summing bus in software is

A* a + B * b + ...

and if this is done with 32 bit or more the potential error is very low. Each software using 32 bit floating point math sounds the same in this regard. Filters are a complete different issue. There are lots of concepts and they all sound different. Same goes for other DSP processing algorithms like timestrech, sample rate conversion etc. But the whole "audio engine" thread is a myth. I know that you are not going to believe this, but maybe then you should read some basic books about computer music. It will not only help understanding digital audio but also give tons of ideas about what to do with all these great tools !!!!!

Robert

3 questions then... And i am willing to believe everything that matches with my personal expiriance...

1) why has the audio quality of cubase and logic become so much better during the last years when the audioengine question is only a myth?

2) why is a single audiofile with warpengine off is sounding so flat in Live in comparison to a playback via the quicktime player or a sampleeditor like spark or similar?

3) What great tools are you talking about? digital mixers and filters?

regards
Sven

[hat]

I am not Robert, I respect Robert and what he has to say about audio.
However, I know and trust my ears, and no amount of audio theories and mathematical facts can tell me that I'm imagining things when I say that there's a clear difference is sound quality. Forget the one file only test. No, we're talking about the summing buss, and summing busses add all the files together and funnel them out to one output. Don't warp, don't effect, don't alter, edit, process nor dither. Take 2 or 3 files and just listen to them in Live, then in Logic or PT or your sequencer-du-jour. I'm a big fan of Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book, and recommend it to everyone as a must have/must read, but regardless, trust your ears. It's not an argument, it's an observation, nothing more. I don't know how, and I don't know why, but IT - JUST - SOUNDS - DIFFERENT, period.

[3phase]

different is a very gentle explanation...

[olafmol]

I am not Robert, I respect Robert and what he has to say about audio.
However, I know and trust my ears, and no amount of audio theories and mathematical facts can tell me that I'm imagining things when I say that there's a clear difference is sound quality. Forget the one file only test. No, we're talking about the summing buss, and summing busses add all the files together and funnel them out to one output. Don't warp, don't effect, don't alter, edit, process nor dither. Take 2 or 3 files and just listen to them in Live, then in Logic or PT or your sequencer-du-jour. I'm a big fan of Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book, and recommend it to everyone as a must have/must read, but regardless, trust your ears. It's not an argument, it's an observation, nothing more. I don't know how, and I don't know why, but IT - JUST - SOUNDS - DIFFERENT, period.

did you make sure the panning laws and output volume is leveled exactly the same? higher volume always sounds better..

and the most important: do a double blind test.....and see if you can still hear the differences when you don't know what's playing..i think you'll be surprised...

Olaf

[globalgoon]

human perception is untrustworthy

[sweetjesus]

Forget the one file only test. No, we're talking about the summing buss, and summing busses add all the files together and funnel them out to one output.

Yes forget the one file thing, but definately look at the link I posted earlier in the thread.

They had like over 15 to 20 engineers do basic mixdowns of a proper profesionally recorded multi track project to compare the results.

[ikeaboy]

Withdrawn

[hat]

I am not Robert, I respect Robert and what he has to say about audio.
However, I know and trust my ears, and no amount of audio theories and mathematical facts can tell me that I'm imagining things when I say that there's a clear difference is sound quality. Forget the one file only test. No, we're talking about the summing buss, and summing busses add all the files together and funnel them out to one output. Don't warp, don't effect, don't alter, edit, process nor dither. Take 2 or 3 files and just listen to them in Live, then in Logic or PT or your sequencer-du-jour. I'm a big fan of Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book, and recommend it to everyone as a must have/must read, but regardless, trust your ears. It's not an argument, it's an observation, nothing more. I don't know how, and I don't know why, but IT - JUST - SOUNDS - DIFFERENT, period.

did you make sure the panning laws and output volume is leveled exactly the same? higher volume always sounds better..

and the most important: do a double blind test.....and see if you can still hear the differences when you don't know what's playing..i think you'll be surprised...

Olaf

I've been adamant about everything else being left alone thus far, I certainly did mean to include these as well. No panning, same volume.
That said, keep bringin' on the theories and explanations, I'll just get back to making music and call it a day. It's getting out of hand and the more I read this thread, the more I realize I really don't care all that much. It was merely an observation I threw in where many people felt the same way. I'll keep composing in Live, render the session stems and mix in ProTools. The days somone says "hey, I really dig your tunes, enjoy your music", then all this will mean even less than it does now.

[olafmol]

I am not Robert, I respect Robert and what he has to say about audio.
However, I know and trust my ears, and no amount of audio theories and mathematical facts can tell me that I'm imagining things when I say that there's a clear difference is sound quality. Forget the one file only test. No, we're talking about the summing buss, and summing busses add all the files together and funnel them out to one output. Don't warp, don't effect, don't alter, edit, process nor dither. Take 2 or 3 files and just listen to them in Live, then in Logic or PT or your sequencer-du-jour. I'm a big fan of Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book, and recommend it to everyone as a must have/must read, but regardless, trust your ears. It's not an argument, it's an observation, nothing more. I don't know how, and I don't know why, but IT - JUST - SOUNDS - DIFFERENT, period.

did you make sure the panning laws and output volume is leveled exactly the same? higher volume always sounds better..

and the most important: do a double blind test.....and see if you can still hear the differences when you don't know what's playing..i think you'll be surprised...

Olaf

I've been adamant about everything else being left alone thus far, I certainly did mean to include these as well. No panning, same volume.
That said, keep bringin' on the theories and explanations, I'll just get back to making music and call it a day. It's getting out of hand and the more I read this thread, the more I realize I really don't care all that much. It was merely an observation I threw in where many people felt the same way. I'll keep composing in Live, render the session stems and mix in ProTools. The days somone says "hey, I really dig your tunes, enjoy your music", then all this will mean even less than it does now.

did you do a double blind test to make sure your eyes/brains arent fooling your ears?

Olaf

[mikemc]

I would characterize the Live difference as "darker". In my Live mixes, I have *seen* that there is a lot of inaudible low end showing up on spectrum analyzers. It may be that this infralow end also causes higher harmonics in the audible spectrum.

I find that when the infralows are eliminated with EQ, things get better. With analog recording vs. PC, does it seem like it's like tape hiss is replaced by inaudible low end presence? This is much preferable really because you can eliminate the ultra lows and not affect the audible the way that you would with dbx or dolby.

[olafmol]

In my Live mixes, I have seen that there is a lot of inaudible low end showing up on spectrum analyzers. I find that when this is eliminated with EQ, things get better. With analog recording vs. PC, does it seem like it's like tape hiss is replaced by inaudible low end presence? This is much preferable really because you can eliminate the ultra lows and not affect the audible the way that you would with dbx or dolby.

this low-end is coming from the soundsources you're using, or the processing you're doing

[mikemc]

this low-end is coming from the soundsources you're using, or the processing you're doing

May well be... what I know is that I'm not making a conscious effort to add it in, so maybe others are experiencing this as well for whatever reason.