RANT HERE: What is a DJ?

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:18 am

I have been having two completely different sets of conversations with two friends of mine.

One is a producer who does live music performance and DJ'ing, the other is a traditional DJ.

The traditional DJ tells me you can't just jump into doing sets with Live because you have to spend months and months learnign how to set program, work a crowd and learn how to be a good DJ. I have a personal feeling that he is feeling threatened by what I am trying to do and despite the fact that yes being a great DJ especially with vinyl etc is a lot more than just pickin out some tracks beatmixing them, I think what sets a good DJ apart from another one happens to mainly be an ear for what's good and a flair for being able to show your own tastes on the floor.

The other DJ who is a producer tells me that Live is greaaaat because it just lets you focus on having fun and picking out good tracks and if something really rocks, then being able to keep going with that flow and doing whacky things on the spot and not worrying so much about the whole 'dj' thing.

The latter friend is much more encouraging and I share his views, but that may be because I deep down think that there's not much more to being a good DJ other than just knowin what's good and what's not yourself. The former is frustrating me because the DJ's that I consider to be truely great are mainly hip hop ones (ala Shadow, Qbert) and I think that the (keyword) 'MAIN' role of most dance music DJ's out there is to know what tracks will rock a crowd and to play them and that is usually just a matter of having good taste and saying 'does this track make me wanna dance?' other than anything more serious than that.

My main concern is that eventually I want to perform my own tracks live and I'm building up that arsenal, but in the meantime I'd like to make some extra money to help support me without doing any TV, IT or consulting work so I can keep my time more musical and I think the best way for me to do that till I get over the production hump is to just go out there and play some tunes with Live.

Please place your comments and rants, whether or not they are prejiduced or flaming. I wanna hear what everyone has to say.

Former Pharaoh · Post by **Former Pharaoh** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:57 am

This is going to sound arrogant, but I am just stating my own observation from experience. I never give a rat's ass what the people THINK they want to hear/feel because everything, in my opinion, is relative. So, with that being said, whether you spin records, click clips, or wack your willy....just be true to what moves YOU because that in turn is what energy is all about. People will connect with the vibes you emanate and if you feel like the music you are creating (mixing, performing etc.) doesn't move you, what makes you feel the music is going to move others?
As you say, there's not much to being a good DJ (or whatever) other than knowing what is good and what is YOURSELF.

bigdog · Post by **bigdog** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:32 am

lets be totally honest here....
u ask the question...WHAT IS A DJ??
ok the real answer is a frustrated musician or the poor mans minstrel?
you guys really need to learn to play an instrument and stop taking money under false pretences......there is no musical ability in being what is actually a DISC JOCKEY....= DJ someone who spins records...the people really gettin in touch with the audience is the musicians....not the dj
the dj is unfortunatley....like a s pare prick at a wedding....just not really essential.......
hope this clears it up
and all you young people put there reading this....dont waste your life spinnin other peoples music and pretending you have some input into it...learn to play an instrument...write your ownmusic and connect with people honestly;;;
cheers

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:00 am

bigdog wrote:lets be totally honest here....
u ask the question...WHAT IS A DJ??
ok the real answer is a frustrated musician or the poor mans minstrel?
you guys really need to learn to play an instrument and stop taking money under false pretences......there is no musical ability in being what is actually a DISC JOCKEY....= DJ someone who spins records...the people really gettin in touch with the audience is the musicians....not the dj
the dj is unfortunatley....like a s pare prick at a wedding....just not really essential.......
hope this clears it up
and all you young people put there reading this....dont waste your life spinnin other peoples music and pretending you have some input into it...learn to play an instrument...write your ownmusic and connect with people honestly;;;
cheers

Ouch!

I guess you are entitled to your opinion I'd say fair enough. Thanks for the comments so far.

::mic-minimal:: · Post by **::mic-minimal::** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:34 am

thanks for the real player help sj, hope I can return the favor, imho you answered it in your original post. I firmly believe that a producer is someone who knows what tracks will rock a crowd and that a dj rocks a crowd regardless of the tracks...ie: the dj's you mentioned by name and the like don't depend on the track to rock the crowd, they are using a different skill set to rock the crowd than the dj who's using the skill set of knowing what records to choose, albeit they both have that skill set. this topic is a matter of contention for alot of folks and i've had several discussions about myself in the past but at heart I'm no more or less a 'realest' and alot of people say that the djs dj-ing skill is not important and that the real talent is picking tracks, I have no problem with that kind of entertainer and I feel that skill is valid but that person has no idea what it is like to be dj qbert, shortcut, the executioners, mixmaster mike or anybody like that. these djs are absolutely 'NOT!' using the talent of picking records to rock the crowd, it's them that is literaly rocking the crowd and that fact is heavily lost on alot of folks like us who use laptops and cd decks.

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:17 am

In response to Bigdog...

First off, every parameter of sound that can be manipulated via a percussive or stringed instrument can be effected by a turntable, regardless of the content on the vinyl. A measure of frequency is a measure of frequency. If it is artfully organized it is music.

Being a musician means being able to interact and express oneself in an environment. If that means cutting apart a track and reinterpreting it, it is as valid as cubist art. If it means placing someone elses' creation within a new context it is as valid as any avante-garde art.

Even if a DJ's track consists entirely of spolia that you have already heard, the DJ is guiding you through a mind expanding procedure... one that will free one from their predispositions of what a song is, and will allow the listeners mind to be the instrument played.

I play guitar, drums, keys and I sing. Sometimes it is my own material. Sometimes it other peoples. When I am composing it is the same case.
One could argue that every musician since the Beatles owes them royalties.
Or, perhaps Beethoven, or some chimp that once beat a stick on a rock 50,000 years ago...

As far as wether or not DJ'ing via Live is DJ'ing (sorry SweetJesus, I know this is a bastardization of your question.) I think Bartenders are a good analogy.

If you bartender serves you a bud, a martini or a glass of tokaji, he is a
fucking bartender. He/she helps moderate your experience, as well as the general atmosphere. And, if it is a wine bar, you are not going to get a bud. Yet, he/she is still an f'n bartender.

If some dude, with or without a whole bunch of bling, decides to come up and play someone else's beats, on top of someone elses beats the are djing. If it is vinyl it is mixology. If it was vinyl, but now is manipulated via digital it is mixology. If it is all your own digital shit, combined live, it is mixology. Using this thread of logic, I feel it is DJ'ing as well.

Hunting with a knife, is more effective than hunting with your fists. It is still hunting.

If you cannot appreciate evolution, I feel little pity for you. More concern.
On the flipside, if you have the ability to time stretch with your turntables without changing the pitch (sans-digital enhancement,) "my" new screen name will be Sweet"xxxxx."

Being able to understand a mildly abstract concept should not be difficult for a musician. Afterall, music is an interpretive form of communication.

I have gone off on this tangent for the benefit of others who like myself have questioned the validity of expressing themselves as a Musician/and or DJ through digital instrumentation. If you disagree with me, I have a betamax player I would love to sell you.

::mic-minimal:: · Post by **::mic-minimal::** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:28 am

I won't insult you, instead I'll use your analogy. if you're a bartender you are a bartender, but if I give you a beer, a glass of wine or a shot of whiskey that does not make me a bartender, not even if the label on the alchol I serve you was made in 1920 or a more futuristic label of 2005.

dCross · Post by **dCross** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:59 am

It's a DJ's job to make people dance by playing music.

It's as simple as that. You can also try to be an artist, a performer, or an MC, but if the people on the dancefloor aren't shaking their asses, you sure aren't doing your job as a DJ.

Remember, you don't have to care if your peers think what you're doing is legitimate. All that matters is the people on the dancefloor.

For example, I saw DJ Craze (3 time DMC champion turntablist) destroy my local club using Final Scratch. Now, many of his turntablist peers look down on using digital files to play music, but no one in the club gave a damn about it.

Let me say this again - if you want to be a DJ in the truest sense of the word, your main goal is to get people dancing in whatever way you want.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:06 am

A DJ is the twenty-first century equivalent of a COVERS BAND.

To explain, I started out in a covers band.

You learn how to interact with an audience, you learn how to choose material you think they will like, you learn how to build a set that works over a night. You learn to play your instrument. You learn how to put on a show and rock the party.

What you do not learn is anything about SELF EXPRESSION.

You are presenting other people's expressions - their songs, their tunes. In a covers band or as a DJ, you do not write the music, you only choose it and present it. Albeit there is skill in doing this, the same way that there is skill in working the 1200s and a mixer, or playing a musical instrument.

But... unless you are playing your own songs, your own compositions, you are a COVERS BAND.

Sure you can say DJ's "create new work" or "mash it up" or "deconstruct and recontextualise" or whatever. Covers bands have been doing this for decades, its called a medley.

Regardless of how you present it, unless you are playing your own tunes, you are a Covers Band.

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:11 am

::mic-minimal::,
Care to elaborate?
If you serve a drink for a guest, you are a bartender.
If you serve a track to an audience you are a DJ.
If your only joy in life is finding strange loops in people's logic, you are either better off reading "Goedel Escher Bach," or you are a TROLL.

( wonder if Trolls can read?)

dCross · Post by **dCross** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:18 am

I disagree with this:

What you do not learn is anything about SELF EXPRESSION.

And I think you prove my point with this statement:

In a covers band, or as a DJ, you do not write the music, you only choose it and present it. Albeit there is skill in doing this, the same way that there is skill in working the 1200s and a mixer, or playing a musical instrument.

In the above statement, you equate DJing skill, the "choosing and presenting of music" with "playing a musical instrument." If DJing is a completely non-expressive act, then why do you put its associated skills in the same category as playing an instrument, a very self-expressive act?

If DJ's have absolutely no self-expression, then why are there different types of DJs? Why do people have favorite DJs, and DJs whose "style" they dislike?

I also think the analogy is somewhat incorrect. A cover band's job is to be as transparent as possible, to be able to play anything requested to them. Wedding/party DJs fit this role, but not the kinds of DJs we're talking about (the kind that would play in a club).

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:24 am

im getting some pretty good insights and gaining my own perspective based on your replies. Allow me to extend the question to "What sets a good DJ apart from a GREAT one?" in your opinions.

Thanks guys.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:26 am

Bad WIFI.. double post. sorry.

::mic-minimal:: · Post by **::mic-minimal::** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:25 am

LOFA wrote:::mic-minimal::,
Care to elaborate?
If you serve a drink for a guest, you are a bartender.
If you serve a track to an audience you are a DJ.
If your only joy in life is finding strange loops in people's logic, you are either better off reading "Goedel Escher Bach," or you are a TROLL.

( wonder if Trolls can read?)

LOFA, I tried not to insult you but you've gone and done it to yourself, i'm as much of a troll as you are curteous. It's obvious that you spend alot of time reading...that's a good thing but try some books on manners they'll do wonders for your disposition. and just so you know, there's no need to spell your name in all capital letters we all see you and feel that you are very important.
btw if you go to peoples houses and reffer to them as bartenders they no doubt think of you as strange as I do.

Pitch black i don't know if I would explain it the way you did but I see exactly what you mean and agree, it's like i've said before on this forum they're are remixers and there are djs

Drc24 i don't think the people at your club were being destroyed by the tracks dj craze was playing, I think they were being destroyed by his dj-ing.

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:29 am

I think a lot of it has to be attributed to respect.

I feel there should is an intangible co-relationship between what level of a interaction a DJ expects to get from their audience, and how much thought, effort, or passion went into preparation/performing.

If you respect your audience, and you desire for them to put their money in your pocket, it is up to you to give them what THEY want.

When I say this, I am specifically saying that either the DJ should give them something standard, but in a professional maner, or they should give them something unique, but of a quality that is redeemable to an objective observer.

These are the standards that I go by. I can appreciate even the most unimaginative DJ's for their noble efforts to not fuck a set with their unpolished chops. In some ways that impresses me more than a DJ Shadow set where everything is so tight (I was a stage-hand at one of his shows once, and I still couldn't believe how well he matched his chops to the non-mpc-triggered-portion of projected video content- it blew my fucking mind) that the issue of legitimy in improvisational content is raised. This brings me to my last analogy of the evening...

I believe clever scratching can be viewed in the same light as soloing on a guitar. Of course my first axe was a guitar.
However, There are some great rythm guitarists that stand alone. I think warmth and melody usually account for positive experiences (even if it is high contrast manipulation of darkness to light, as executed in a NIN song, and not far from the uncomfortable silence before a Hitler propaganda speech, or a Caravajio painting.) Also, I would like to add that there are many people out there that love music but despise noodling, no matter what the medium.

If you respect an audience, give them the portion of your dedicated repeptoire that you feel they will appreciate, or respond well too, and keep your experimental self indulgence to an appropriate level you are in good standing. Fortuantely, Live makes this area significantly larger.

I did noise rock in a large band once (my preference was playing manipulations of live-monitored-christian-talk-radio, 9/1/1 era through a Lexicon, PrimeTime digital delay processor- though I also played guitar.) Almost everyone in the band had a prestigious degree in music (not myself.) we loved our music, but it sucked. Rather than play off of the vibe of the audience or contain any prepared composition, most of what we did was arrogant, imposing, and grating. The fact that it was obvious that we were capable individuals made it even more offensive that we took money from people expecting a product.

I have since found it easier to perform some more experimental music solo, especially with live, within the manner of DJ'ing. For me the joy of DJ'ing is providing a rich, full range of sound (usually my own) with less room for rotten apples.

That's what I have learned. I hope it helps.