Sends only output is 3db lower than master

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icedsushi
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Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by icedsushi » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:01 pm

I just noticed something when setting a track's output to sends only. The level with the send turned up the whole way is 3db less than when master is selected or output to another track with the sends down the whole way. I guess there's nothing wrong with this but just wondering why it's not consistent.

I usually set up submixes in my returns instead of another track, because I find it a little more flexible in FX routing. It's good to realize that if I switch a track back to master output, I should lower it by 3db to retain the same levels.

3dot...
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by 3dot... » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:17 pm

I don't think it's supposed to be that way...
report it to bugs/support@ableton
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Tone Deft
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:03 pm

weird, don't have Live with me to try this but if the send is mono that would do it.

the track is stereo, so you have two channels summing to 0dB.

if the send is mono it's only receiving one channel, which would be 3dB lower.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

icedsushi
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by icedsushi » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:28 pm

Nope, it's definitely a stereo signal path the whole way from the track, through the return track to the master (because that's just the way Live is, even a mono signal is 2 identical L/R, correct?). All faders at unity gain & pan controls centered. Try it out when you get a chance. You can try it in mono though by placing a utility plugin on the track, it will be the same result either way.

I sent Ableton an email, maybe someone can think of a reason it should be this way?

3dot...
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by 3dot... » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:58 pm

no other reason I can think of then..not even a plugin.
what version of live?
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Tone Deft
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:05 pm

IIRC if you hold down shift while launching a new set Live will give you a default blank set with no weird settings. might shake something out.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

icedsushi
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by icedsushi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:21 am

I'm running 8.2.8 and funny you mentioned holding shift down because that's how I just started building the template I'm using. Have you tried testing this? Because as I refresh my memory & think back I seem to remember it always being like this in Live 5 as well. I must have forgotten about it for awhile until I was mixing something with the returns & noticed it.

Tone Deft
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:34 am

tried it here, they track just fine. track 2 and send A solo'ed (it's a track I'm working on and I'm too lazy to start a blank one.) track 2 set to Sends Only, all three meters - track 2, send A and Master read the same,-0.32dB dB in my case.

:?
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

icedsushi
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by icedsushi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:00 am

Aha! I figured it out. :!:

If you have crossfade assigned for any of your sends it lowers the signal by 3db. Must have something to do with panning laws?

I have A/B crossfade assigned for 2 of my sends so those are 3db lower than the other two which are not assigned. I didn't think to check down there...that it would affect anything.

Looks like this is true for any track with crossfade assigned, the signal drops by 3db.

Tone Deft
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:11 am

crazy, new one for me. cool that you figured it out!
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

icedsushi
Posts: 1652
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by icedsushi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:29 am

Yeah we all learned something new then. It's good to know when mixing, that just activating the crossfader changes your levels.

Tone Deft
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:45 am

icedsushi wrote:Must have something to do with panning laws?
played with it a bit. it's leaving headroom for the x-fade effect. x-fader full left is the left 'turntable' playing @ full party 0dB volume. x-fader right is the right 'turntable' at full 0dB party volume. x-fader middle is L+R both playing and maxing out @ 0dB party volume. but one side is missing so it's at -3dB. if left and right had two tracks playing at full party levels they would sum to 0dB.

panning laws... goddamn dirty panning laws...
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

3dot...
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by 3dot... » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:06 am

party volume... you're a weird one td...

I wanna hit myself for not thinking about the x-fader...so obvious..
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Tone Deft
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Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:04 pm

I'm weird? takes one to spot one. ;)

I was completely exhausted, glad to be able to form complete sentences last night.

hindsight's a bitch. next time I visit the optometrist I'm going to ask him to take out the hindsight from my glasses and increase the foresight.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

3dot...
Posts: 9996
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Re: Sends only output is 3db lower than master

Post by 3dot... » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:10 pm

:lol:
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