Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
runningoutofspace
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:59 am

Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by runningoutofspace » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:35 am

So, I started a topic over at Native's forums about the Remix decks+F1 being touted the answer to Live, which "isn't for DJs"
and my point was that it's not the whole picture. I use Traktor Scratch Pro 2 and perform with Live while its running in parallel on one system.
It's allows me to do much more than what they say is "not for DJing" and I'm fine with that because it's actually performing.

Suspiciously, the moderator over in the F1 forum derailed my topic trying to talk about me somehow offending hip-hop because I said
that The Bridge added to Serato was given to a DJ support base that isn't really into all that "button pushing" and "sync" stuff.

That is a bold statement but what I meant is that Serato users don't demand sync because they like the real deck feel and have a different,
more urban (hip-hop, rnb, mash-up, pop, etc.) outside of the Traktor users which would have been more likely to have lauded a Bridge-
like addition to Traktor in the first place. It didn't happen that way so for Traktor users there was virtual midi and running the two programs
in parallel.

The latest antics got me thinking if I should pose this question the Live community:

===================================================
Is there any real thing out there that can help Live users actually DJ within Live.
===================================================
I'm most interested in having the ability to control waveforms via timecode and controllers like Traktor Scratch Pro 2 and all within Live.
I know about Ms. Pinky but it has not been updated in a long while so let's face t, I'm using
Traktor Scratch Pro 2 with Live 8 right now and while this works it'd be nice to do it all in Live.
I'm asking for one solution here... but here's the topic if you want to see what was going on:
http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... p?t=164334

And...for the record, I didn't mean to anyone that plays or is into hip-hop, uses The Bridge (and Serato)...don't be offended by what was misinterpreted by the trolls over there.

And..if you say "just get Serato", I here you but...I'm on TSP2
runningoutofspace
http://www.runningoutofspace.com
Xone:DB4/Xone:K2s; CDJ-2000NXSs & SL-1210 MK5Gs
Live 9Suite/Max 6, Push, Xone:DB2, Rhizome SXE Custom, Sync-Gen Pro II.

runningoutofspace
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by runningoutofspace » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:19 pm

Bump.
I inadvertently created a bit of a storm heading in the wrong direction within Native Instruments' F1 forums. The Moderator "DJ Freshfluke" has heavily derailed my topic, going on and on about me offending, being arrogant and acting as if I'm above everyone else simply because I pointed out that the F1+Remix decks aren't the answer to the Bridge. When NI touted their new controller and deck upgrade as the answer to DJing with Ableton, which is not for DJing they made a bold statement that implies that there's something wrong with that.

I was puzzled why the Moderator was going on and on about me offending hip-hop and people in general but I'm starting to believe in the theory that the real controversy is that NI was just selling their "new thing" and also offended those who use Live.

Over at the F1 forum this would have been deleted so I put my response here for Freshfluke because it's out of his/her control and I want others to know what I said:

"Let it go dude. I didn't say anything. I've clarified what I felt was misunderstood and your ongoing efforts towards a non-existent spat is not going to get me to rise to the occasion. There's nothing to discuss in your accusations on what you think I did and seeing the way you've moderated this to your own end, it doesn't matter.

It'd be nice to stay on topic but I think you've actually derailed this one.
I never said anyone sucked or were whack for doing what they do.. the point is that Native Instruments said something that implied something negative about Live as a "DJ" program or "Not" for DJ'ing. The Answer was the F1+Remix decks and while I like the Remix decks, it's not the solution to why people should still use Live and perform with it. This direction that NI is heading, while good, isn't a reason to bash Live use in a DJ setting. Beyond the clip launching capability that is being touted as the "Answer" to a so-called issue with a non-DJ program..that ain't the full realm of possibilities with Live.

Lastly, I'm done playing games over this. You need to let it go. I wouldn't have sent you a PM over this but it's not constructive to be spatting over something I've already tried to explain to you and the masses. If you don't like my answer, that's not everyone's problem. I tried to explain without further offending others as you say I did but what you're doing is worse than what you say I've done because you're abusing your power.

I'm above all this drama and that's about it. I think it's personal now and I really don't care if you don't like me now.

- runningoutofspace"

=====================
DJFreshfluke is going on and on about me doing this and that and giving me warning but I'm not confused. I know what I said and I'm free to say here that NI pretty much stole the Session view's main strength and pushed negativity on Live for the purposes of promoting their "new thing" during their launch.
=====================
[quote=DJ Freshfluke;1018064]dude? again you choose a way to express you're standing above all and everybody?

in fact, you're missing the point: in this whole thread, despite all your efforts, you're not finding much acceptance with your thesis. accept that. continuing in petting other users will lead to an infraction.
see this as a last warning.[/quote]

My response was

"Stop trying to provoke me over that. You are pushing the wrong example on how to handle something when you don't agree with someone. My honest criticism is my opinion. If you don't like that - don't go threatening me with warnings and what not over something you won't let go. You ought to be ashamed to have tried to engage in a conflict as a Moderator with someone who won't take the bait.

You don't even know me and your actions as a Moderator have revealed a personal sensitiveness to something I'm telling you that I didn't have anything to do with. Please let it go and let this get back on track by just saying "Agree to disagree" so that we can move on."
__________________
- runningoutofspace"
Last edited by runningoutofspace on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.runningoutofspace.com
Xone:DB4/Xone:K2s; CDJ-2000NXSs & SL-1210 MK5Gs
Live 9Suite/Max 6, Push, Xone:DB2, Rhizome SXE Custom, Sync-Gen Pro II.

matthews
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by matthews » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:06 pm

just read that thread over at NI, full of lulz for sure. :lol:

102455
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by 102455 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:16 pm

The Traktor Remix Decks may well be the nearest any "proper DJ" software has got to being "Ableton Live DJ Edition", but there's one big failing....

Warping - or rather, lack of warping.

Until one of the DJ software vendors adds Live style warping to their wares, or until Ableton do release a DJ Edition of Live, anything else will be a compromise.

runningoutofspace
Posts: 19
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by runningoutofspace » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:07 pm

I ended up getting banned in the Native forums. I'm still suspicious of what the real hot-button issue was but that was so weak..I'm actually amused that I irked someone that much without actually doing anything.

In the end, this whole situation has me thinking about finding something else...I really do wish that one day there is a full-blown DJ solution within Live that exceeds Traktor Scratch Pro but I'm fine DJing with Traktor Scratch Pro 2 and performing with Live in parallel.
http://www.runningoutofspace.com
Xone:DB4/Xone:K2s; CDJ-2000NXSs & SL-1210 MK5Gs
Live 9Suite/Max 6, Push, Xone:DB2, Rhizome SXE Custom, Sync-Gen Pro II.

runningoutofspace
Posts: 19
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by runningoutofspace » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:23 pm

How is the Bridge?

Anyone have any issues with a USB mixer as your main mixer?
http://www.runningoutofspace.com
Xone:DB4/Xone:K2s; CDJ-2000NXSs & SL-1210 MK5Gs
Live 9Suite/Max 6, Push, Xone:DB2, Rhizome SXE Custom, Sync-Gen Pro II.

JuanSOLO
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by JuanSOLO » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:14 pm

I use Traktor, have not upgraded to the latest version yet, but I also use Ms Pinky, for a totally different thing than DJing, more like a Live looping playback of synths and beats I record to a looper.

Ms Pinky is WAY fun, but it takes a while to get used to and you often reminisce how smoothly Traktor works.
The Ms Pinky M4L device is awesome, very customizable. Yet there are limitations that are frustrating when trying to use in a DJ fashion, for example you can create a custom browser. HOWEVER, you can use blank audio OR midi clips, and just name them properly and they will load tunes from a specified Folder, in a since turning Live's session view into a Browser.

There are some guys over at the Bomes forum who seem to have integrated Traktor and Live together using APC40's and being able to switch between a Traktor Mapping and a Default Live mapping. Pretty cool shit.

If your interested in a Live only solution, Ms Pinky is cheap enough to investigate. The Pinky VST will work and has a browser. For me customizing the Ms Pinky M4L patch is the way to go, but you have to buy M4L as well as Ms Pinky.

Ms Pinky does have Loop Points, Cue points, and basic features you probably use in Traktor. Sometimes the vinyl seems to skate a bit if your hard into beat juggling.
The Loop points are not nearly as efficient, and loading stuff from the browser does not seem a perfect as Traktor, but it's definitely doable.

The thing with Ms Pinky is you will notice how perfect Traktor is with it's basic tools.
I like to think of Ms Pinky as the solution for people who are not afraid of imperfections in performance, and want to work strictly in Live.

starving student
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by starving student » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:32 pm

you go back over there and tell dj fresh fluke that we say fuck hiphop better over here than over on NI's pissy little site and tell him starving student said so!!!

lethal_pizzle
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by lethal_pizzle » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:26 am

starving student wrote:tell him
tell her

ekwipt
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by ekwipt » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:02 pm

Wow can't believe you've been banned, we've hand some good discussions over the CDJs and Xone DB4.

Truthfully the NI are terrible forums, over moderated and barely anyone goes there, the moderators don't even work for NI and the guys that do barely frequent the forums anyway.

runningoutofspace
Posts: 19
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by runningoutofspace » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:09 pm

Update: OK.
This is like a blog now (a bit off topic but still important to what I started with)
I now get what the issue was but Freshfluke wouldn't just come out and say it. It took them to ban me before I knew that

Point 1) Apparently Native Instruments doesn't like it when you say anything that implies why others use Serato
Point 2) Not everyone is a dude...(yeah, I know that)
Point 3) No genre or certain community DJs should be identified with either of the top two DVSs (because NI said so!)

Point 1), I'll get to that.
Point 2), I can agree that everyone is not a "dude" - yeah, I'm wrong when I write that to someone that I don't know is male or female but can you tell if I'm male or female by my name...runningoutofspace, nope...I might actually be 19 strong under one identity and I was saying that to DJFreshfluke who I assumed was a male. I could be wrong in that and it would be wrong if he is a she but what's the point in not telling me different? DJFreshfluke only had to say "I'm a lady Sir" and I would have apologized. By the time I got to that point Freshfluke had derailed the topic way off message to the point where there was an ongoing spat that I didn't want to have going on. I asked Freshfluke to let it go but I got banned from the site for a day with a "1 point infraction" and by the time I regained access the topic it was closed. Which brings me back to.....

Point 1), if Native Instruments isn't cool with me "patronisingly" implying that Serato is used by the hip-hop, rnb, beatjuggling, pop, more urban type of DJs in the community then I can now agree with that. That view differs from what I had previously believed but I'm now understanding why they wanted to drive that home with all the underlying tactics at my expense. The majority of Traktor users are normally identified as "Dance"....nothing wrong with that, I realize that I've actually ignored Native's Scratch/Controller demos over the years - even the ones with Maschine that had a distinct hip-hop feel and personality. So there's all kinds of Traktor users and I'm corrected in thinking that there's any type of genre that should be identified with any particular DVS. They are only right now and part wrong too. Just because NI is showcasing the F1s+Remix decks with Shiftee and Greg Nice (hip hop right?) and they say "we are all free to use what we want" I guess it's now OK to say that's if there's any users out there that are struggling with which DVS will be accepted by "________" community....don't worry about it. Native has now given blanket approval for many things.

Point 3) For the users fed up with Traktor for whatever reason, you should no longer feeling guilty for wanting to switch to Serato because both companies have something to offer now. And this works vice versa.

I'm serious on that. All the gender and genre bashing that I apparently did - it was a hidden-hand process to drive that point home to me. I'm not purposely arrogant or brash or etc., I'm a little blind at knowing who is who because I thought it didn't matter but I also know that you talk in forums to learn something and you learn something only when people offer their points up front. I realize how to be more politically correct when addressing individuals in here because I can see the issues now and how people can use one thing to achieve another end.

IMHO, Native Instruments is showcasing this new stuff to solidify their efforts in reaching out/capturing that other DJ demographic. They missed the boat on Ableton and Serato's integration via the Bridge. They have already been devoting efforts towards showing the DJ world that they are not to be seen as catering to any particular genre or style. I've just ignored the previous hip-hop flavored videos with Traktor, Maschine, S4, X-1, because I didn't have a need to do what they were showcasing. I can agree with them in that aspect that the top two DVSs are now offering something for everyone and no one should feel guilty anymore for lusting over either of them or wanting to switch from one to the other or even...using both to get on with what you need to do.

IMO, the F1+Remix decks were Native's way of leveling the playing field so that no one can say that their DVS is for "Dance". The hard part is that Serato is tied to Rane and there aren't many manufacturers pushing for third party items these days. I'm rethinking my priorities and I guess I'm OK now with longing for a valid reason to use Serato and Advanced HID + the Bridge is pushing towards that end of the DVS...my next effort is to get A&H to put-out some controller assistance for those who use Scratch Live.
http://www.runningoutofspace.com
Xone:DB4/Xone:K2s; CDJ-2000NXSs & SL-1210 MK5Gs
Live 9Suite/Max 6, Push, Xone:DB2, Rhizome SXE Custom, Sync-Gen Pro II.

Mr Jay
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by Mr Jay » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:27 pm

runningoutofspace wrote:Update: OK.
This is like a blog now (a bit off topic but still important to what I started with)
I now get what the issue was but Freshfluke wouldn't just come out and say it. It took them to ban me before I knew that

Point 1) Apparently Native Instruments doesn't like it when you say anything that implies why others use Serato
Point 2) Not everyone is a dude...(yeah, I know that)
Point 3) No genre or certain community DJs should be identified with either of the top two DVSs (because NI said so!)

Point 1), I'll get to that.
Point 2), I can agree that everyone is not a "dude" - yeah, I'm wrong when I write that to someone that I don't know is male or female but can you tell if I'm male or female by my name...runningoutofspace, nope...I might actually be 19 strong under one identity and I was saying that to DJFreshfluke who I assumed was a male. I could be wrong in that and it would be wrong if he is a she but what's the point in not telling me different? DJFreshfluke only had to say "I'm a lady Sir" and I would have apologized. By the time I got to that point Freshfluke had derailed the topic way off message to the point where there was an ongoing spat that I didn't want to have going on. I asked Freshfluke to let it go but I got banned from the site for a day with a "1 point infraction" and by the time I regained access the topic it was closed. Which brings me back to.....

Point 1), if Native Instruments isn't cool with me "patronisingly" implying that Serato is used by the hip-hop, rnb, beatjuggling, pop, more urban type of DJs in the community then I can now agree with that. That view differs from what I had previously believed but I'm now understanding why they wanted to drive that home with all the underlying tactics at my expense. The majority of Traktor users are normally identified as "Dance"....nothing wrong with that, I realize that I've actually ignored Native's Scratch/Controller demos over the years - even the ones with Maschine that had a distinct hip-hop feel and personality. So there's all kinds of Traktor users and I'm corrected in thinking that there's any type of genre that should be identified with any particular DVS. They are only right now and part wrong too. Just because NI is showcasing the F1s+Remix decks with Shiftee and Greg Nice (hip hop right?) and they say "we are all free to use what we want" I guess it's now OK to say that's if there's any users out there that are struggling with which DVS will be accepted by "________" community....don't worry about it. Native has now given blanket approval for many things.

Point 3) For the users fed up with Traktor for whatever reason, you should no longer feeling guilty for wanting to switch to Serato because both companies have something to offer now. And this works vice versa.

I'm serious on that. All the gender and genre bashing that I apparently did - it was a hidden-hand process to drive that point home to me. I'm not purposely arrogant or brash or etc., I'm a little blind at knowing who is who because I thought it didn't matter but I also know that you talk in forums to learn something and you learn something only when people offer their points up front. I realize how to be more politically correct when addressing individuals in here because I can see the issues now and how people can use one thing to achieve another end.

IMHO, Native Instruments is showcasing this new stuff to solidify their efforts in reaching out/capturing that other DJ demographic. They missed the boat on Ableton and Serato's integration via the Bridge. They have already been devoting efforts towards showing the DJ world that they are not to be seen as catering to any particular genre or style. I've just ignored the previous hip-hop flavored videos with Traktor, Maschine, S4, X-1, because I didn't have a need to do what they were showcasing. I can agree with them in that aspect that the top two DVSs are now offering something for everyone and no one should feel guilty anymore for lusting over either of them or wanting to switch from one to the other or even...using both to get on with what you need to do.

IMO, the F1+Remix decks were Native's way of leveling the playing field so that no one can say that their DVS is for "Dance". The hard part is that Serato is tied to Rane and there aren't many manufacturers pushing for third party items these days. I'm rethinking my priorities and I guess I'm OK now with longing for a valid reason to use Serato and Advanced HID + the Bridge is pushing towards that end of the DVS...my next effort is to get A&H to put-out some controller assistance for those who use Scratch Live.
Let it go dude.

runningoutofspace
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by runningoutofspace » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:48 pm

Mr Jay wrote: Let it go dude.
Yeah thanks - I'm moving on.

I have to admit that I haven't see too many DJs (outside of the US) using Serato these days. I think that even timecode with Traktor is getting a bit scarce because phono turntables aren't everywhere anymore and the CDJs, as stable as they are, they are kind of becoming my back-up plan if it all goes to crap.

I have a Serato SL4 pack arriving in a few days and I'm 85% in favor of returning it. I only ordered it because I'm using Ableton Live a lot and needed to try the Bridge. However, it ain't that serious.
http://www.runningoutofspace.com
Xone:DB4/Xone:K2s; CDJ-2000NXSs & SL-1210 MK5Gs
Live 9Suite/Max 6, Push, Xone:DB2, Rhizome SXE Custom, Sync-Gen Pro II.

runningoutofspace
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by runningoutofspace » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:19 pm

I think I'll stick with Traktor.
I can continue doing what I do (using Live and Traktor) even though Advanced HID, Scratch Certification and the Bridge ain't here.
I could have other things in Serato, but I'd lose a bunch of things I've become comfortable with.
http://www.runningoutofspace.com
Xone:DB4/Xone:K2s; CDJ-2000NXSs & SL-1210 MK5Gs
Live 9Suite/Max 6, Push, Xone:DB2, Rhizome SXE Custom, Sync-Gen Pro II.

de wouzer
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Re: Native Instruments' Remix decks+F1 controller vs. Live & ??

Post by de wouzer » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:38 pm

I am looking forward to F1 and TP2.5

Now I use Traktor with Maschine and X1 and a mixer
Workflow is amazing.
Maybe there are some things I cannot do, but with the things I can do, I can create amazing music.

When I started with Ableton, I had no idea where to start. Too many possibilities. Now I understand it... but I don't like working with it.
Okay, I am not producing, but I make live sets. The combination of Traktor and Maschine is nice.

I have seen some people being banned from the NI forum. All of them have been very unfriendly and agressive. Saying something very negative about NI won't be the reason to kick you out, (I think)
macbook 2.4 ghz 2 gig ram, akai MPK 25, uc33e, apc40, ableton 8 suite, krk vx6, NI audio 8

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