So I could never go public, then?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
conny
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So I could never go public, then?

Post by conny » Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:26 pm

Read:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/le ... ep11.shtml
Using a sample of dialogue from a film or television programme will also require clearance.

This is very hard to obtain, especially with films. Hollywood is very protective of its product, so a film company may simply refuse outright or demand such a high fee that it's not feasible to release the song. It's a similar case with TV.

As with music, there are two copyrights to clear, one for the script and one for the recording of it in the film. So getting a friend to re-read the dialogue will not get you around the problem completely.

This is further complicated by the fact that actors often have clauses in their contracts which give them the right to be consulted for uses like this. That means more time and expense when trying to get things cleared.

In short, the whole business is pretty much impossible. That's reflected in the extremely small number of records that you hear using samples of film and TV dialogue. If it were easy, a lot more people would be doing it.
Game over..?

// C
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hacktheplanet
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Post by hacktheplanet » Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:40 pm

You could always just say what the actors say yourself, changing the dialogue slightly. Screw you movie/music industry!
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conny
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Post by conny » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:02 pm

To some extend, yes, but:
03 How Not To Clear A Sample
There are a lot of misconceptions about clearing samples. Here's some:

You cannot clear a sample by re-creating it (more on this later)
Altering the sample (speeding it up or adding a few effects) does not get you out of clearing it
I did not find the passage but I read that doing a dialoge yourself does not free you from one of the rights in concern...

Sad topic anyway...
I'm thinking about getting a copyright for the word "copyright" :evil:

// C
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djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:26 pm

White label - go under the Alias Mac Shaun 187

who needs money when you could have thousands of smiling faces

you might be broke and hungry but at least people will be smiling

screw the red tape - put out whites
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conny
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Post by conny » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:44 pm

Like that attitude, and I am not trying to make money of my stuff. (OK, special price for you, my friend 8) )
But it would be satisfying if it could be played on radio, that's my main concern, type of.

// C
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DJADD
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Post by DJADD » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:50 pm

This is our current battle... not so much the music, since our music is original, what we create... but, I grew up listening to punk, and industrial, skinny puppy, severed heads, discharge, crass, front 242, lustmord... during the 80's audio sampling of films made some of the tracks from these bands what they are, hell, skinny puppy 'bites' has a thank you right on the cover to Roman Polanski, since a ton of samples of audio from the film 'The Tenant' turned into a bunch of puppy tracks! Heck, an old Hitchcock movie was on the other day, and same thing, puppy song fodder!

So, you find something you like to hear (spoken word samples layered over music), and find now... you really can't (or shouldn't) do it.... then, we had to go and get ourselves into the wonderful world of video sampling as well (thanks EBN, for corrupting me :D )

So, it's probably great that these bands' albums from the past haven't suddenly been sued for back pay... unless they (a), have been, and settled, or (b), they never got noticed.

We also have been considering our own spoken word bits, because it would be fun, and would work... it's just cool hearing those bits from tv and film, listening to them, out of context.

ok, somebody say Amen for Negativland!
Last edited by DJADD on Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SimonPHC
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Post by SimonPHC » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:19 am

amen.

also amen for Creative Commons

Diskclaimer
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Post by Diskclaimer » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:21 am

what about an *internet* radio show??

Ive often thought of having My own "station where I could play crazy/weird
stuff that I like, be it others tunes or my own.......

Then You would target the people that liked that kind of stuff.....

If 9.9/10s of todays raido listeners heard some of my more abstract
stuff they would not even consider it music.....

?? ??? ??? Just throwing a thought out......... ?? ??????

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:13 am

I use bits from film, but I tend to use small vocal samples from random things. From what I know, ( besides Negativeland, who were royally screwed by Island and U2 ), most of the time with small bands you get a ceases and desist order at most.
I tried getting permission for voice samples from a movie a while ago. The reply led me to believe that it wasn't a big deal to them, unless it violated their typical warning about showing the film etc.... I'll be curious to know if I do get sued when I eventually release it, doubt it actually.

I think Negativeland was a rare exception because the cover the single came in just said U2 on it in big letters, and it got noticed.

divonic
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Post by divonic » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:51 pm

this is a topic that is extremely grey IMO. I'm not sure where I stand on it.

I can totally understand needing permission to use a sample from a song. You didn't play that sample, it is someone elses work but it is still music and you are making music which could get confusing. "So who made that phat beat?"

but movies, well, the idea of sampling a vocal sample is to drop in a cool sample you are not pretending, implying, or even infering that it is your sample. It is obviously from an outside source. If the sample is really cool and you include documentation it is basically an advertisement for the film. why should you have to pay to advertise for something .(ok so I'm going a little overboard here)

but there is the issue of Fair use.

"fair use:
A use of copyrighted material that does not constitute an infringement of the copyright provided the use is fair and reasonable and does not substantially impair the value of the work or the profits expected from it by its owner; also The privilege of making a fair use of copyrighted work
- Among the factors determining if a use of a copyrighted work is a fair use are these: the purpose of the use, the character of the use (as in being commercial or educational in nature), the nature of the copyrighted work, and the amount of the work used."

Underlinning added by me. how can you sampling a phrase from a movie detract from the movie. or make it less profitable. people aren't going to listen to your song rather than watch the movie.

conny
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Post by conny » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:17 pm

Interesting, the fair use.
Most samples from movies I use are just short phrases that are not by my knowledge associated with the idea of the film or characteristic about it. It's more like sampling one violin tone out of an orchestral work.
Voices may be recongnizable for movie people, I often don't know who said what when the sampling is done.
So what about an obvious example: If someone released a song where Arnold's famous "I'll be back" was clearly heard and used to strengthen the character of the song. By your experience and guess - is that OK or not from the law point of view?

// C
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Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:40 pm

conny wrote:So what about an obvious example: If someone released a song where Arnold's famous "I'll be back" was clearly heard and used to strengthen the character of the song. By your experience and guess - is that OK or not from the law point of view?

Personally I would want them sued for making bad art, then publicly executed, but that's just me. :P

conny
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Post by conny » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:45 pm

I could agree on that :) , I just wanted to use an example...
// C
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louZ
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Post by louZ » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:26 am

business is killing art yo :x
where would hiphop and music in general be without sampling?

computo
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Post by computo » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:52 am

Well, I'd like to think that without sampling we'd be way further along than we are now.

The name of the game is not having to worry, down the road. Trust me, if you have a conscience or any valuable assets, you dont want something like copyright infringement hang over you.

I have studied in depth, and scorned and infringed parties can sue for damages, not just the amount you may have cost them...AND there is a potential of punitive actions, that is jail time, if you are proven to have willfully and knowingly infringed on the copyright. Now that is no shit. in fact, Groucho Marx, Im to understand went to jail for infringing on some other writers copyright.

Best bet: use only licensed and original samples on tracks you plan to distribute. Save the other samples for practicing or live.

-Computo

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