Live Drum Rack control (MIDI, Maschine or what?)

[aioffermann]

Hey there fellow Abletoneers!

Drum racks are proving to be a crucial cornerstone in what my live set will eventually be. I'm very much into having separate kick, snare, hat and percussion drum racks with a single audio file on each rack, and in each cell. Then I like to tweak the different cells so I have alot of variations on my kick, snare, hat and percussion.

For example, in my kick rack I might have a kick, but then the next cell will be a bit more lowpassed and staccato, and the next cell might be more lowpassed but also more resonant and with more release, etc etc..

I'd like to hear how you all get the most flexibility out of the drum racks in a live setting.

Right now using the APC40 to touch only one or two parameters at a time doesn't seem to be working (maybe I'm not using it right). I'm contemplating either building or buying some sort of midi controller of knobs to control both filter and amp ADSR's (these are by far the most important parameters to me) for each cell (probably a max of 12 cells per rack, which need 10 knobs each, with probably about 6 racks bringing it to 720 "knobs" (more like alot less knobs and alot more banks/channels) needed), or investing in a Maschine. The Maschine seems to pretty much BE a drum rack, with good sequencing and swing abilities, along with sample start and end, ADSR for both (I presume) amp and filter etc etc etc...

What do you all think?

[JuanSOLO]

I feel ya. So I came up with a solution.
Over the years I have settled on this.

- I use a 4x4 grid on the DrumRack, 16 cells, each with an instance of Sampler, "grouped to DrumRack"

- On these 'nested' drumRacks I have 8 Macros, which are mapped to the Sampler. (Select, Pitch, Tune, Decay, Send A Send B Send C, Pan)
- Each Sampler represents something specific, i.e Kicks, Snares, Hats, Claps, Beeps, Toms, Perc, Samples, etc.
these Samplers, have samples that are spread across the chain, and the chain is mapped to a Macro for selection of samples, so I can scroll through kicks or snares. ALSO the Send A B and C macros are mapped to the sends within that nested rack, but the "audio to" on these sends is routed to the hosting drumRacks send outs. It's important to route it that way so the preceeding FX Racks in my chain for each cell get routed to the sends. Send A being an Echo on Return A, Send B being a long tail Reverb on Return B, and Send C being a Gated Reverb on Return C

- Inside each of these 'nested' DrumRacks, I have and AudioFX rack following it which has things like Saturation, Corus, Degrade, RingMod etc, all mapped to the 8 Macros. These are generally my 'FX' fx.

- After this FX rack, I have another FX Rack called EQ COMP. These 8 macros are (LO, LOWMID, HIMID, HI, Threshold, Ratio, Attack, Release)

- Outside of my 'hosting' or MAIN drumRack that houses all these nested DrumRacks, I have a MasterFX device, that has 8 Macros which are things like, ReDUX Fade, Parallel Compression, BeatReapeat, and so on.

This method gives me A LOT of on the fly production possibilities for DRUMS.

The APC40 is pretty limited out of the box. So I use Bomes Midi Translator to expand the APC40 and maximize my mapping ability for the DRUM and other things.

My DrumRack is the driving force of my set, it sits on Track 1
I have made a preset in Bomes for the APC40 that is my "Drum Mode" When I push Track Selection 1, Drum Mode is active AND the Matrix LED's light up indicating 16 pads (cells)
If I push one of these pads a series of events happen. For example, if I push the Kick Pad
The Kick cell is brought into VIEW, and then 4 of the buttons underneath the 'Device Control Knobs' blue hand, KICK rack stuff
CLIP/TRACK - bluehands the nested DrumRack Macros for the Kick Sampler, (Select, Pitch, Tune, Decay, Send A Send B Send C, Pan)
DEVICE ON/OFF - bluehands the FX Rack for kicks
< - bluehands the EQ COMP Rack for kicks
> - bluehands the Master FX Rack which effect the entire DrumRack

If I hit the Snare Pad, everything works the same, only for snares.

My entire set works in this fashion using Bomes, APC40 and Track Selection buttons to select modes and LOTS of devices which can easily be bluehanded. My Bomes Template + Live set does a lot more, but I am just going into the DrumRack part.
I did leave some technical info out, because it's TOO complex to explain.
HOWEVER, you can download my LiveSet with only the DrumRack here. I took out the Vallhalla Room on the Room Return, and deleted some other plugs, but you'll get the idea.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1399581/X%20DRU ... roject.zip


ALSO, you can follow this Bomes thread to watch the progress of this Template. It's still a WIP, but it's come a long way and I will be continuing to work on it until I reach satisfaction. I have a real passion for the APC40 and DrumRacks while getting Bomes to manipulate it all in a way that makes Maschine look very limited.
http://www.bome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3735

Eventually I will make my template a little more public along with a Video Demo and instructions.


Here's a screen shot showing what my FULL set looks like. It's changed a wee bit, I went back to Samples for Kicks instead of the EKS pro.

[aioffermann]

Wow. Awesome. Thanks for such a thorough response!

Really cool template idea, man. Fawkin dope. I'm going to have to read it about two more times to really get it in my head, but it seems awesome. I wonder how hard Bomes is to learn, because I'd love to create my own little variation on your awesome template.

Yea, I'm going to read this a few more times throughout the day before I say much else

[JuanSOLO]

Bomes is tough to learn at times, but thats why I started that thread, and the help I have received there has been AMAZING.
Ideally I will finish the template out and it could easily be manipulated to your own liking.

For a while I was doing this opening and closing of device racks, and using 8 Device control buttons to bluehand devices. This way only what was bluehanded was in view. ALSO I was using some remote scripting to make the Track Control Knobs act as a second bluehand. So you had 16 Knobs of control per device button. I found that keeping the Device Knobs separate from the Track knobs made more since for performance OR fast workflow.
Having them tied together meant less flexibility.

[aioffermann]

Wow if you could make it to be customized to one's liking, I might just mail you some cookies.

Here's my dream drum set up:

16 step sequencer per drum cell

A button to bank into 16 knobs or 2 knobs of 8 that that will shift their correspondent step either a 32nd step forward if the knob is pushed to the max, or a 32nd step back if the knob is pushed to the minimum. You'll be able to get some super custom swing and shuffle this way.

I actually think your set up of selecting the drum cell on the APC40 would give me enough time to tweak the cell's parameters with the APC 40's standard mapping (going through the amp, filter, filter envelope gates), except I'd replace one of the arbitrary filter envelope parameters with envelope amount (can't believe envelope amount isn't standard!).

And then some other button or two to access the amp and filter envelope curves. Can't believe that wasn't implemented in the APC 40 to begin with either.

[JuanSOLO]

I love/hate the APC40.

As for Step sequencing I have tried Hanz Pertov's script, Native Kontrol apC_CL3, Mark Egloff's M4L device, Drum O Box, Griid for iPad as well as the step sequencer made entirely in live with NO 3rd party assistance.

All of them are neat, NONE of them are customization, each one of them are missing something the other has.
except for Griid, it just sucks.

For a while I obsessed over step sequencing with M4L, and have been slowly learning remote scripting to get what I want.
HOWEVER, it totally took a back seat so I could lock down this Bomes template and get to work making music.
Eventually I will revisit step sequencing.
Mark Egloff's sequencer with Velocity would be almost perfect.
I have not dropped any money on the Lemur iPad stuff because the iPad I have access too is my wife's.
But the Lemur app looks very promising, and far more flexible than the APC40 for sequencing.

[aioffermann]

Really now?? I bought Lemur on my mama's Ipad with a $100 dollar app store gift certificate I had laying around, but never got around to learning about it.

Had NO idea it could be used for step sequencing! Any idea what the swing possibilities are? I'm going to research this ASAP.

[JuanSOLO]

I'm not sure, I just started looking into it recently.
Seems it has a bit of a learning curve in comparison to TouchAble and Touch OSC etc, YET the reviews and comments and videos I watched made it look extreamly enticing, specially for step sequencing.

[UCAudio]

Juan, this is incredible! Does this work along side Hanz script or are they not compatible?

[JuanSOLO]

Does this work along side Hanz script or are they not compatible?

I have not messed with Hanz's Script in a while.
I am not 100%, but I believe Hanz's Script sends out different CC's than the default APC, maybe not though, maybe it's component numbers and control numbers for the control surface stuff is the only difference?
I did however load up the script and run it with this template, but it has not been tested thoroughly.
It could be worked out though. I say just try it.

The thing is, I dont really want to waste any of my own time making it work with Hanz's script.
At first I had it working in conjunction with the apC_CL3 from Native Control, yet there was some buggy behavior with incoming pads and the sequencing.
Live would crash A LOT.
These 'other' templates/scripts are great, but personally I think they could be better.
For example
Hanz's Track control knobs section needs to be customizable, and I hate the way the sequencer is "stacked." Id rather have the matrix completely for 1 cell at a time. What I would like to do is implement a hybrid between Mark Egloff's layout and Hanz's script, yet leaving much of the knobs and buttons editable through Bomes. What would be TOTALLY WICKED would be to have a running light through ALL of the knobs, and the knobs adjust pitch, decay, velocity, sends A B C for different modes ALL for each cell at a time, in relation to the running light on the Matrix.

With a lot of ideas I have tried seemed good on paper, but to actually perform with them may not be user friendly.
SO, I have decided to dial this stuff in without the sequencer and get it working well, possibly easy enough to understand so one could customize it.
I have some gigs coming up over the next 2 weeks so I am focused on that right now.
HOWEVER, after that, I will get this template TIP TOP as it stands, and then learn how to incorporate a step sequencer for Track Select 1 or something.

The only thing that would stop me from completing this stuff would be the release of Live 9, with a bunch of great new features such as a mini Bomes implemented kinda like Traktor has. Hopefully Live 9 will resolve a lot of features that this template works around, plus offer new possibilities for the performance/producer.

[JuanSOLO]

I realized I mention something in my post above about the Bomes Template thats available at the bomes thread, that IS NOT TRUE.
There is NO drumMode right now.
In other words there is no DrumPads on the APC40 template.
I have been using my Novation Remote SL pads and keys to play drum cells.
HOWEVER, if you click MIDI MAP in Live and see what is assigned to the Sampler DeviceRacks 'title bars' THOSE CC's or Notes are what my Novation is assigned too.

At the moment, you could either make your controller send those exact commands, OR you could create your own DrumMode in Bomes, OR you could re-map them, but you will also have to adjust the Bomes Template a bit.

For example, if you have some spare Pads/Keys/buttons on a controller you could map those to the title bars of the Sampler DeviceRacks.
In Bomes you would need to go into the "DRUM MODE ON" preset, and change the translators for KICK FX - SAMP FX to recieve these incoming pads/keys or buttons.

What happens here, is you hit a pad like a Kick, and Bomes selects the proper title bars for your Kick FX which you navigate though using
CLIP/TRACK
DEVICE ON/OFF
<
>

make sense?

[claydough25]

im sort of a noob but I have a different rack for each drum, with 2-3 layers of that drum on each rack http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NA9mg0TSN0

[UCAudio]

My DrumRack is the driving force of my set, it sits on Track 1
I have made a preset in Bomes for the APC40 that is my "Drum Mode" When I push Track Selection 1, Drum Mode is active AND the Matrix LED's light up indicating 16 pads (cells)
If I push one of these pads a series of events happen.

Is this the drum mode that you are saying does not exist in your setup? I'm hoping to really have a chance to mess around with it this week. It would be AMAZING if you could press one of the 16 drum pads/apc cells to select it for editing... but also for triggering/playing! That is the reason I was asking if it works with Hanz script because I think he has a 4x4 note mode/drum mode with 16 lit up apc pads/cells.

Also, I'm still learning Live but in your setup, is it possible to have it so that each drum cell's sample can be duplicated and tweaked individually. For example:

- hit drum cell 1 to select the kick drum for editing
- use a knob to select which kick sample you want there
- now tweak and edit... pitch decay filter, etc
- now some how enabale an exact copy of that tweaked kick which is also triggered by the same drum cell
- now tweak that duplicate a different way... pitch it down 12 semitones, low filter, fx, etc

This is how I often flip my drums to make them hit harder. I believe you can split signals in Live and apply different fx but I'm still learning. Doing this in real time using APC controls would be AWESOME. Anyway thanks again for sharing this man. Can't wait to try try out your setup!

[JuanSOLO]

It would be AMAZING if you could press one of the 16 drum pads/apc cells to select it for editing... but also for triggering/playing! That is the reason I was asking if it works with Hanz script because I think he has a 4x4 note mode/drum mode with 16 lit up apc pads/cells.

This was my original intention. I was doing this but I was using the NativeKontrol script instead of Hanz's. Thing is Live would crash when trying to route a secondary track DIRECTLY to the DrumRack from the pads, enabling you to 'play' the rack without having armed the track, AND if you wanted to record you would just arm it.

I will do some work tonight and make it work with Hanz's Script if possible, OR just add a drumMode with no sequencer.

I'm not sure about the duplication. I think I know what you mean, but maybe not. I imagine if you dig into what I have posted you might figure out a way.

As I said before, I have tried lots of things. Some ideas sound great and end up kinda useless. For example, the idea here has always been to allow yourself tons of editing possibilities in real time, eventually saving those settings and recalling them for a song. What I continue to find out is I have a few favorite settings, and I dont "real time edit" as much as I thought. One I have some good sounds I am kind of done.

ALSO Live/M4L has a very poor system for storing and recalling presets, enough so I start to think I am just gonna build something in Reaktor, but I really want this to work. There is a way to store and recall settings in Bomes just need to figure it out.

[JuanSOLO]

On second thought, I will not be getting this stuff to work with Hanz's script in one night. I just remembered how the sequencer uses all the MUTE SOLO ARM buttons and that totally goes against much of how my APC40 works.

I will add a pad mode into the Bomes Template though ans post it, that part is easy.