FM USING LFOS

[twinstates]

Anyone got this working ok?

I have been trying to do some fast lfo action using the max lfo plug.

What i have been able to achieve basically sounds like ass, distorted and nasty, like I am using a square wave. not had the chance to compare with the modular yet but it's pretty basic stuff - modulating filter freq and volume in operator.

Was wondering if anyone else has got this working well and it's just something I am doing wrong...

Cheers

Ts

[3dot...]

um... hope I understand you correctly..but..
why not do all the FM modulations within operator...?
it's go 4 oscillators(which can modulate each other / be slowed down) ...plus 2 lfo destinations .....
moreover..
each oscillator in operator has a separate envelope section..
which is way nicer than just an lfo..

[twinstates]

Hi,


I am modulating the filter cutoff and volume, Which as far as I know aren't assignable to the volume or cutoff...

And I am changing up the speed of the modulation rhythmically - it's a subtle effect but a cool one, problem is it soudns like crap with headphones as you can hear the edges of the sine really harshly...

Hey ho, it's always a compromise with audio in some respects...

[Tone Deft]

What i have been able to achieve basically sounds like ass, distorted and nasty, like I am using a square wave.

sounds like it's working, FM synthesis is a black art.

sound on sound has some great tutorials on the topic, start searching with this article.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_ar ... hool3.html

hth

[twinstates]

Thanks for the link Tone

I am ok with modular synthesis - I got a pretty decent modular setup in the studio.

The problem i am having is getting a good sound out of Ableton using similar principles - as a guess i think it might be a sample rate thing. Fm'ing using max perhaps isnt giving me a very accurate sine wave which is why can hear it breaking up.

Am gonna try doing the same thing with a proper control voltage tomorrow and see if i get any difference.

Nice one for the SOS links, good old Paul Wiffen


Cheers

TS

[3dot...]

Hi,


I am modulating the filter cutoff and volume, Which as far as I know aren't assignable to the volume or cutoff...

And I am changing up the speed of the modulation rhythmically - it's a subtle effect but a cool one, problem is it soudns like crap with headphones as you can hear the edges of the sine really harshly...

Hey ho, it's always a compromise with audio in some respects...

also worth to notice that the lfo in operator IS assignable to the volume AND the filter cutoff..

so maybe you mean you're trying to modulate at audio-rate.. ?
(higher than an lfo rate?)

because if you want max to modulate a live parameter at audio rates...
you should specifically use a max patch that uses 'live.remote~' object to control the parameter...

[andrewbrewer]

I doubt live controls and parameters can be modulated at audio-rate. The processing overhead would be enormous. However, the LFO inside operator can be tuned and used as another audio rate modulator.

[3dot...]

oh yeah...
seems I got it totally wrong..
an m4l patch can receive in a sample accurate mode from live... but not send to live
well it is confusing you must agree..

Parameter Automation Data at Audio Rates

While getting parameter automation data from the Live application at message rates for use in your Max for Live device is common, some devices require that you receive parameter automation data from the Live applcation at higher and more accurate rates. Any Max for Live device can receive its parameter automation data in the form of a sample-accurate audio-rate ramp using the live.param~ object.
The live.param~ object takes as an argument the name of an automatable parameter to which it is bound. Any change to the automatable parameter's output value will be send out the outlet of the live.param~ object at signal rate.

Sending parameter automation data at signal rate

Add a new object to your patcher window, and type in live.param~ followed by the name ot the parameter whose output you want to use (be sure to use the name of the parameter set by the Scripting Name attribute. When you close and save your device and start the transport, your patch will send audio-rate data out the outlet of the live.param~ object.

[Tone Deft]

I doubt live controls and parameters can be modulated at audio-rate.

sure, I made a max4Live device that lets you modulate any parameter you want. there's a whole category of devices for LFOs:

http://maxforlive.com/library/index.php?tag=lfo

[andrewbrewer]

Tone, yes I use and love those max modulation tools, but I have assumed (I may be wrong of course) that all of those modulations are at more of a "message-rate" frequency as opposed to audio rate. I haven't tested but my theory is that probably we can get a 1 ms accuracy with the message-rate control data. That's pretty detailed but at the same time the devices receiving the modulation data (say a filter cutoff in operator) probably have some degree of built-in smoothing so that if you send them midi cc automation you don't get noticeable zipper noise. All of this I suspect would combine to prevent very fast parameter modulations from being accurate. Fast parameter modulations still might sound cool and interesting though, in their own digital artifact-y way.

[Tone Deft]

I have assumed...

I haven't tested but...

I suspect...

assumptions are the death of problem solving.

in developing on of those devices I ran the thing at LFO and musical rates, very slow and very fast. I also graphed the settings and they'd draw out smooth sine waves.

I didn't get under the hood of what was going on but the results were exactly as I expected, controls oscillated smoothly at whatever rate I wanted without being a CPU hog.

[andrewbrewer]

Now you've got me interested in pushing those LFO tools harder! I never thought to push them to audio rate modulations. You're saying you can get up to 440hz or higher?

[Tone Deft]

yep. peruse those devices, check out their features, that should give you some insight into how they perform.

[3dot...]

Now you've got me interested in pushing those LFO tools harder! I never thought to push them to audio rate modulations. You're saying you can get up to 440hz or higher?

audio rate starts at 40Hz...

[broc]

Notice that the factory device 'Max Api Ctrl1LFO' has a max frequency of 10 Hz. There is probably a reason for this..