Ableton for Production - Advice on Hardware Mixer, please

[spinnerthrow]

Hi – First post here, and would like to begin by stating that I have read *every single post* on this board regarding the use of external hardware mixers and Ableton. I’ve determined, to the best of my ability, that there is no published advice regarding my question. My apologies for noobishness if I somehow missed a post.

I use Ableton exclusively to compose. I don’t DJ.

Most importantly I like lights and buttons and knobs. Faders not so much, but I am tactile, so I’ll take a fader over a mouse.

I have a 2011 MBP, a Motu Ultralite Mk3, and an APC40.

I love the APC40 because it appeals to my desire to physically control my sounds. I don’t like the Ultralite so much because its main/headphone volume knobs are difficult to access, and the Ultralite emits a loud popping noise when I power it on. I am thinking about getting rid of it and going back to my Presonus Firebox – purely because of the knobs, believe it or not.

I have several hardware effects that I currently use with Ableton - a Roland Space Echo and a Filter Factory. I currently have the effects set up as return tracks in Ableton and wired to the program via the Motu. It works, but it’s not a lot of fun to play with.

Two questions:
1. Is there a hardware mixer/audio interface that will do the same thing as the Motu but also allow for external mixing/EQing etc? And with pretty knobs and lights and onboard effects? Ideally I would have more control over the external filter and space echos – including EQing the signals coming in/out of the effects, and perhaps would be able to mix in onboard effects as well. If a combo interface/mixer does not exist and I need to keep my Motu and hook it to a mixer, so be it.

2. Is there a hardware mixer that would allow me to route individual Ableton tracks to individual channels in the external mixer? While I recognize you can fully mix within Ableton, I just like the idea of using an external mixer to mix my Ableton sets. So, could track 1 in Ableton be routed to channel 1 in an external mixer, track 2 in Ableton to channel 2 in an external mixer, etc., with the ability to EQ each incoming Ableton track using the hardware channel strip, and then return the track to Ableton for recording on a separate track having been EQed/space echoed/delayed/filtered/etc.?

I have been waved away from the Pioneer 800/900s, as they are apparently best for DJing, and apparently don’t handle midi well(?). I drool over all the pretty lights and knobs of the A&H series, and would love to use one, assuming it can do what I need it to.

On a side note, I’m a huge fan of Deadbeat/Deepchord/etc. He uses a laptop, Ableton, a UC-33e, and a 24 track analog mixing desk. No external instruments. Thus, I can only assume that the mixing desk is to handle individual tracks coming out of Ableton, but I don’t know that to a certainty. Is he doing what I seek to do?

Many, many thanks in advance for any help/guidance you can provide.

Regards,

st

[matthews]

I'm in a similar situation, currently considering this...

http://www.mackie.com/products/1604vlz3/

It doesn't support midi at all though, so each channel would have to get routed individually and as a whole would need to be paired with a midi controller of some sort (uc33e/livid code/etc) for effect control.

[invol]

There are a bunch of new options in this territory. Most of them are really expensive, but here are some worth considering. The first one is an analog mixer with a 16 channel Firewire interface.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZEDR16

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Control2802/

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StudioLive16

The other options is go with an analog desk that is not also an interface, and then get some really nice converters - e.g., Lynx Aurora 16 with FW card and Midas Venice 16 or Toft 16 channel desk...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Aurora16/

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATB16a/


UAD Apollo Quad with Euphonix Artist Control and Mix is also an attractive option....

Good luck!

Cheers,
Brian

P.s. Deadbeat is also one of my favorite producers...

[102455]

Yamaha n12?

[aeon_flux]

if you look for lot of midi control and possibility for routing to every channel from live look at those:

http://www.native-instruments.com/index ... tified&L=1

evo as the only one have posibility to route also to master and cue buses.
i'm owner of zero4 so i can answer your questions, but i have read manuals of all the mixers excluding pioneer.

[spinnerthrow]

Hi Aeon - Thanks for your response. When browsing the forum for help, I read some of your replies/comments dating back to 2009.

I checked out the Evo and all of the other mixers on the NI page. It seems, though I could be wrong, that these mixers are all dedicated to DJing, and not so much to composition. I am not sure how I would be able to tell the difference, but I think I will need more channels than offered by those below. While NI lists all of those mixers as being Tractor ready, I don't use Tractor and don't DJ, so I am wondering if there are other mixers that are user-friendly to Ableton and will allow me to map each track in Ableton to a channel in the mixer.

Many thanks for your help - I do appreciate it!

st

if you look for lot of midi control and possibility for routing to every channel from live look at those:

http://www.native-instruments.com/index ... tified&L=1

evo as the only one have posibility to route also to master and cue buses.
i'm owner of zero4 so i can answer your questions, but i have read manuals of all the mixers excluding pioneer.

[spinnerthrow]

Thanks for your response, Brian. I have read a bunch about the AH Zed R16. People just rave about the sound quality of the pres and the EQ. With that board, would I be able to route individual tracks out of Ableton into individual channel strips on the board? Do I then set up my external effects on Aux channels? Not sure how to route everything with a board with so many options. I guess it is enough to know that I *can* do something with a particular board, and then figure out *how* to do it later.

So the Zed R16 has onboard effects, a built-in audio interface, and mappable midi controls. I guess the only remaining question is if my Ableton tracks can individually map to the mixer or whether they will all come out of Ableton on the 3/4 channel.

Do you have any thoughts on how the R16 compares to the Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2?

Thanks again for your help.

st

There are a bunch of new options in this territory. Most of them are really expensive, but here are some worth considering. The first one is an analog mixer with a 16 channel Firewire interface.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZEDR16

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Control2802/

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StudioLive16

The other options is go with an analog desk that is not also an interface, and then get some really nice converters - e.g., Lynx Aurora 16 with FW card and Midas Venice 16 or Toft 16 channel desk...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Aurora16/

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATB16a/


UAD Apollo Quad with Euphonix Artist Control and Mix is also an attractive option....

Good luck!

Cheers,
Brian

P.s. Deadbeat is also one of my favorite producers...

[matthews]

Wouldn't you still need an interface to route all the 16 channels individually from Ableton to the Mixer? Also, it looks like it supports midi, so you could control sends with that I suppose, as opposed to individually using routng aux channels? I've thought about going this route for a while myself, but the initial setup and routing scares me off...

[aeon_flux]

While NI lists all of those mixers as being Tractor ready, I don't use Tractor and don't DJ, so I am wondering if there are other mixers that are user-friendly to Ableton and will allow me to map each track in Ableton to a channel in the mixer.

"traktor ready" mixers in context of ableton live usage means that you can route audio to all channels with usb/midi as they have buit in audio interfaces. in most cases that also means that all mixer faders/knobs/buttons are midi mappable (not in a&h 3d/4d which has separate midi controls) so you may skip their original mixer functions.

live has fully functional software mixer (faders, sends, pfl/cue and master bus, eq, fx) so you can consider also midi controller (apc40 seems to be a best one) or control surfaces (mackie control?). why to pay for mixer inputs if you feeding them just from live?

[invol]

Thanks for your response, Brian. I have read a bunch about the AH Zed R16. People just rave about the sound quality of the pres and the EQ. With that board, would I be able to route individual tracks out of Ableton into individual channel strips on the board? Do I then set up my external effects on Aux channels? Not sure how to route everything with a board with so many options. I guess it is enough to know that I *can* do something with a particular board, and then figure out *how* to do it later.

So the Zed R16 has onboard effects, a built-in audio interface, and mappable midi controls. I guess the only remaining question is if my Ableton tracks can individually map to the mixer or whether they will all come out of Ableton on the 3/4 channel.

Do you have any thoughts on how the R16 compares to the Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2?

Thanks again for your help.

st

I personally have not spent a lot of time with either desk. The main different is that the Presonus is digital, so it has more options, but the ZED has that nice analog sound. With all setups, there are a lot of ways to route things, so I would snag the manual from their site and check other forums - gearslutz.com, etc... - and talk to people using it.

Cheers,
Brian

[spinnerthrow]

Some of the mixing desks mentioned above have built-in audio interfaces. That is, I would be able to sell my Motu. I did read on some other message boards about folks chaining interfaces to these boards, but for very specific reasons. As I understand it, the interface is not necessary.

The A&H Zed R16 has downloadable midi templates for most applications (except Live, grrr).Go here and click under Documents: http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/ ... tId=ZEDR16

I am going to read the manual cover to cover, but I think I have found what I am looking for. FWIW, there is a massive discussion of the Zed R16 - 105 pages worth - on the Gearslutz site. I read virtually all of it, and see that the board handles 16 individual channels out of Ableton, can send the mix back into Ableton for recording, and should be generally able to handle my outboard gear.

Thank you very much to all who replied.

Wouldn't you still need an interface to route all the 16 channels individually from Ableton to the Mixer? Also, it looks like it supports midi, so you could control sends with that I suppose, as opposed to individually using routng aux channels? I've thought about going this route for a while myself, but the initial setup and routing scares me off...

[oblique strategies]

FWIW, there is a massive discussion of the Zed R16 - 105 pages worth - on the Gearslutz site.

Do you have a link? I did a search at gearslutz, but it turned up multiple pages of possibilities. Thanks!

[spinnerthrow]

Here you go, Oblique. All 105 pages of it. I read and read and read and found answers to all my questions:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... mixer.html

Another helpful page was this one:

http://recording.org/hybrid-recording-f ... -does.html

And last but not least, the user guide for the unit has some very helpful diagrams to explain how it works:

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/products/ ... tId=ZEDR16

(click on documents). Along with the user guide are midi templates for most DAWs, except Ableton.

Hope this helps. Mine arrives on Friday, so I will soon know whether I faffed it all up or not.

FWIW, there is a massive discussion of the Zed R16 - 105 pages worth - on the Gearslutz site.

Do you have a link? I did a search at gearslutz, but it turned up multiple pages of possibilities. Thanks!

[oblique strategies]

Thank you!

Congratulations on your new mixer. If you feel like sharing your experiences with it I will be very interested.