Live's midi editing shortcomings?

[simmerdown]

wondering what people feel is missing from Live's current midi editing?

what can other daws do more/better?

is per-note automation (i.e. bitwig's future wetdream) such an advance? i mean, you can automate the shit out of midi already in live with envelopes as it is...

asked in sincerity....what else is there?

[andydes]

Being able to see what's going on in other tracks is the big one for me. (yes, another wig feature, but that's not my point).

I'd be fine with not being able to record automation in clips, if I just had the option to draw absolute envelopes.

[simmerdown]

ah, yes i hadn't missed automation recording, i guess it gets velocity and thats about it...hmmm, thats 1

and by 'absolute envelopes'...you mean?....

[stringtapper]

One need only look at Logic's MIDI editing feature set to see how far Live is from what would be considered comprehensive. Whether Live needs to have comprehensive MIDI editing capabilities is an entirely different question.

[simmerdown]

so thats what im asking...what can logic do?

[stringtapper]

http://documentation.apple.com/en/logicpro/usermanual/

[donmich]

http://documentation.apple.com/en/logicpro/usermanual/

Sometimes its better just to say you dont know (or to say nothing).

[stringtapper]

http://documentation.apple.com/en/logicpro/usermanual/

Sometimes its better just to say you dont know (or to say nothing).

Yeah because if I had just said "It has the Hyper editor and an Event editor" that would have meant so much more to him. I don't have time to write out all of Logic's MIDI editing features in a forum post.

So yeah, sometimes it is better to say nothing. Jesus.

[invol]

Most of the other older DAW's have much deeper and wider functionality, especially Logic, but also Cubase, DP, and even Pro Tools (yes, PT). That said, what Live does, it does very well and very fast. The biggest shortcoming is that you cannot look at, and edit, 2 or more clips at a time. (FYI, Logic and Pro Tools are the ones I know best, as I haven't touched Cubase or DP in a decade.) Both of them offer extensive options for selecting notes based on a number of criteria, and them applying various transformations on those selections. For what most people do in Live, that level of control is simply not needed. To really understand the differences, you would need to spend some time with another DAW and see for yourself.

Cheers,
Brian

[simmerdown]

theres a solid answer, thanks invol

if i ever get to the end of what Live can do with midi (unlikely) i'll know where to look...

[fishmonkey]

Can someone explain in a nutshell and clearly, the difference between automation and modulation? How does one affect the other? Is modulation the range of the automation?

automation is a general term for recording and playing back changes in a system.

in a music system, modulation generally describes changing the properties of some parameter (e.g. volume, pitch, phase, cutoff frequency, etc). modulation can be done manually, or via an algorithm (e.g. using an LFO to control a parameter), or you might record the modulation changes, in which case you have automated your modulation!

[anybody human]

When I think of per note automation, I think a good example is programming strings or orchestral instruments. In one chord, you might have different attack, velocity, etc. for different notes. I'd have to see it in Logic or Bitwig to say for sure but it sounds interesting.

[synnack]

Can someone explain in a nutshell and clearly, the difference between automation and modulation? How does one affect the other? Is modulation the range of the automation?

Does anyone know why you have to group a plugin to edit it's modulation?

Clip envelopes can be used to automate or modulate mixer and device controls. Since mixer and device controls can potentially be controlled by both types of envelopes at the same time (and also by the Arrangement’s automation envelopes), this is a potential source of confusion. However, modulation envelopes differ from automation envelopes in one important way: Whereas automation envelopes define the value of a control at any given point in time, modulation envelopes can only influence this defined value. This difference allows the two types of envelopes to work together in harmony when controlling the same parameter.

Simpler said Automation controls the absolute or exact value. Modulation is a relative influence on a value. Think of it like FM synthesis in Operator. OSC 2 is not Automating OSC 1, but Modulating it. similar concept with envelopes.

[simmerdown]

When I think of per note automation, I think a good example is programming strings or orchestral instruments. In one chord, you might have different attack, velocity, etc. for different notes. I'd have to see it in Logic or Bitwig to say for sure but it sounds interesting.

is this different from creating automation in clip view?...you can go along each note and automate in live...note as you play it, but im not sure BW is offering that 'promise' either (?)

[JuanSOLO]

It's not other DAW's that peak my interest, it's Traktor's midi editing that really blows the doors off.

For example you can,
easily program incoming and outgoing messages changing the LED's and translate messages
you can map multiple controls to 1 parameter and adjust the values differently. So maybe a button makes a send go from 0 - 50 but you have a knob that goes from 0-127
there are selectable behaviors pending on weather you are using a knob, button or encoder. Buttons have toggle, hold, momentary, direct(sub menu allowing you to go directly to a value)
encoders have sensitivity settings
there are modifiers, so you can set up a control, to ONLY affect a parameter if the modifier condition is met, in other words you can creat shift+ function, yet with ANY button or ANY value.
you can export controller mappings and save them, re import them.

It's kind of like having Bomes built in to the midi preferences, but it offers even more specific features and is easier to grasp, yet still very complex.