PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Vivo
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by Vivo » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:51 am

ShelLuser wrote:
Vivo wrote:But, I feel music has become to much about the back up dancers, the set design and the light show.

We've forgotten what a real performance LOOKS like.
Uhm.... :?

Don't you mean what it sounds like? :wink:
No, I mean what it LOOKS like, meaning just some musicians playing their instruments on a stage. Meaning, no back up dancers, no elaborate set design and light show.

If people think that just watching musicians play their instrument on stage is boring then they were really not that into their **MUSIC** were they?

ShelLuser
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by ShelLuser » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:17 am

Vivo wrote:
ShelLuser wrote:
Vivo wrote:But, I feel music has become to much about the back up dancers, the set design and the light show.

We've forgotten what a real performance LOOKS like.
Uhm.... :?

Don't you mean what it sounds like? :wink:
No, I mean what it LOOKS like, meaning just some musicians playing their instruments on a stage.
Gotcha.

Now, before I go on I honestly do see and understand what you mean. Even agree with it. (not fully sober at the time of writing, but this specific issue / topic has fascinated me ever since I started with this awesome stuff so I can't help myself here).

Having said all that....

You do realize that some "instruments" (mine being Ableton Live backed up with other stuff) wouldn't really show much of anything when being played live, perhaps apart from me hitting the play button on the APC40 ?

Considering how his ("backup") music is quite heavily leaning on dubstep and as a whole electronic I can't help think that /not/ showing anything at all and merely singing alone with the original score was the right choice here (keeping my previous comment in mind).


As said, I'm not kidding here, its what has fascinated me ever since I started with this whole awesome stuff. Like; you will never be able to really give a good display of the actual work which went into electronic music. Just like if your music is tied around sequencers and such there isn't much of a show aspect to utilize when it comes to playback because it basically means hitting one button and done.

I've been around long enough to recognize that hitting that single button comes with a WHOLE lot more background than most others will realize, but what's the added value?

Worse scenario; would you want to mimic stuff merely for the show? If there's one thing I really disliked in my youth it was people doing full playback to their songs.


Now, I can see I may sound abit uber negative here. Not my intention, in general I do agree with you wholeheartedly. Its kinda what triggered my remark above; I get the feeling that female singers feel the need to strip off of as much clothing as possible and by doing that hide other performance aspects.

But even so (and my bottom line)....

I'm not too sure this idea really suits electronic music.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

oblique strategies
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by oblique strategies » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:44 am

h4nc0 wrote:
delicioso wrote:Cool. Do you happen to know what they use to produce?
logic and PT I believe. You know it's funny. He and I were talking about whatever synth/sequencer one uses does not matter at all just a week ago. LOL.
When you can write a song this catchy you could use just about use any synth/sequencer & get good results! That's talent. :D

Image

Vivo
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by Vivo » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:35 pm

I'm not too sure this idea really suits electronic music.[/quote]
-----------

Sure it does! Many people have said that it is boring to look at some guy hunched over looking at a computer screen on stage.

So, what their really saying is that the music really isn't that interesting.

It needs dancers, lights and an elaborate set design for it to be interesting.

It then becomes less and less about a **musical performance** and more
and more about putting on a **SHOW**

ShelLuser
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by ShelLuser » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:23 pm

Vivo wrote:
ShelLuser wrote:I'm not too sure this idea really suits electronic music.
Sure it does! Many people have said that it is boring to look at some guy hunched over looking at a computer screen on stage.

So, what their really saying is that the music really isn't that interesting.
Actually I think its more likely they'll be wondering why they paid money (say E 60,-) to see a performance and ended up seeing something they could have done at home too by picking up the CD for E 15,- or so.

Note that this is within the context of my comment above; you have your whole performance on the laptop and the only thing you do is hit start.
Vivo wrote:It needs dancers, lights and an elaborate set design for it to be interesting.

It then becomes less and less about a **musical performance** and more
and more about putting on a **SHOW**
But isn't that always the case these days?

I've read several interviews with Michael Jarre and he also often commented on the issue of what parts to play using a sequencer and what parts to actually play live in order to keep the audience entertained. Its not so much the musical performance which matters but the show aspect; keeping the people entertained.


As said I do agree with you. Heck; I still recall having seen a very old recording of I believe an Eurovision Songfestival; a rather funky band just finished paying which got the audience all worked up.

Next thing a guy wearing a sweater and a pair of jeans walks up with a guitar, goes to sit on the middle of the stage and simply starts playing and singing. Instant classic.

But it seems to me as if the people in general don't have the patience or interest in such kind of performances anymore. Either that or the artists themselves who maybe feeling the need to "go with the flow" and do things like everyone else does.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

Vivo
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by Vivo » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:11 pm

But it seems to me as if the people in general don't have the patience or interest in such kind of performances anymore. Either that or the artists themselves who maybe feeling the need to "go with the flow" and do things like everyone else does.[/quote]
----------------------------------

I know, if you can't beat them, join them. Even Squarepusher has some sort of electronic helmet on now. Dehumanizing himself and severing any chance to connect with his audience.

If video killed the radio star maybe all these theatrics and performance art
concerts will kill music all together or maybe just the laptop "musician."

All the best Peter.

oblique strategies
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by oblique strategies » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:33 pm

I think what matters is people's expectations, & how closely that matches what they experience in a performance.

If they go to a concert expecting to see musicians playing "real" instruments in real time (think a Folk or traditional Rock act), then their expectation is met if what they see are musicians simply playing their instruments.

If their expectation is to see a "show", if it's been hyped, then that's what they are expecting to see.

Electronic music can be difficult due to the lack of recognizable instruments & demonstrable "playing". Many electronic acts make up for this less than scintillating aspect by adding additional musicians &/or visuals/theatrics.

The size of the venue is a big factor also. A small electronic combo or solo artist can hold the attention of a small group of people without too much difficulty is the music is good & the set isn't too long. This is even easier if the artists can engage the audience on a personal level.

This becomes increasingly difficult as the audience numbers increase, due in some part to the distraction of being in a horde of people (many of whom are not really there for the music anyway, but attend because it's the place to be for that night). The further away from the performers, the more difficult it is to engage them in any meaningful way. You're experience is one of just stuck in a crowd.

The DJ escaped this requirement to hold people's attention becasue the expectation was set in advance: "It's about the music, not me as a performer" This has helped DJ events to reach huge audiences without the need for a massive show element. Of course big DJ events do have such show elements, but almost any event with a big budget does.

Bottom line: staring into a laptop with nothing else occurring (especially while hunched over a navel-height table) is NOT going to engage anyone as a "performance", even though it is a genuine concert. It would be best to conduct such a show in complete darkness if the focus is strictly the music. As soon as you allow any sensory input other than the music, that becomes part of the performance, & thus us subject to the audiences expectations.

Vivo
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by Vivo » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:48 am

oblique strategies wrote:I think what matters is people's expectations, & how closely that matches what they experience in a performance.

If they go to a concert expecting to see musicians playing "real" instruments in real time (think a Folk or traditional Rock act), then their expectation is met if what they see are musicians simply playing their instruments.

If their expectation is to see a "show", if it's been hyped, then that's what they are expecting to see.

Electronic music can be difficult due to the lack of recognizable instruments & demonstrable "playing". Many electronic acts make up for this less than scintillating aspect by adding additional musicians &/or visuals/theatrics.

The size of the venue is a big factor also. A small electronic combo or solo artist can hold the attention of a small group of people without too much difficulty is the music is good & the set isn't too long. This is even easier if the artists can engage the audience on a personal level.

This becomes increasingly difficult as the audience numbers increase, due in some part to the distraction of being in a horde of people (many of whom are not really there for the music anyway, but attend because it's the place to be for that night). The further away from the performers, the more difficult it is to engage them in any meaningful way. You're experience is one of just stuck in a crowd.

The DJ escaped this requirement to hold people's attention becasue the expectation was set in advance: "It's about the music, not me as a performer" This has helped DJ events to reach huge audiences without the need for a massive show element. Of course big DJ events do have such show elements, but almost any event with a big budget does.

Bottom line: staring into a laptop with nothing else occurring (especially while hunched over a navel-height table) is NOT going to engage anyone as a "performance", even though it is a genuine concert. It would be best to conduct such a show in complete darkness if the focus is strictly the music. As soon as you allow any sensory input other than the music, that becomes part of the performance, & thus us subject to the audiences expectations.
-----------------

Bottom line: staring into a laptop with nothing else occurring (especially while hunched over a navel-height table) is NOT going to engage anyone as a "performance", even though it is a genuine concert.

-----------------
If the music is interesting enough it should be enough.

But I think your spot on about setting up people expectations.

If you start out as a theatrical act you will DIE as a theatrical act.

KISS tried to take off their make up but now it's back on. People that go see
KISS expect a show.

People that go see the Rolling Stones expect a musical performance.

john gordon
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by john gordon » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:31 pm

Garbage style you pricks.now suck me off!!!!

beats me
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by beats me » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:08 pm

I’m just going to go ahead and be that guy.

Once every year or two there is a song that becomes hugely popular that I just don’t get why it polarizes the masses. It’s no reflection on the production or the artist personally or musically. To me this is the Korean Ricky Martin’s Living La Vida Loca set to techno music.

From the gushing about the video on the first page I fully expected to be blown away visually. There’s nothing to be blown away by. It’s a dude doing goofy dancing in different locations. Hardly original or worth getting fixated on over and over.

The message behind the music? LMFAO is 2 albums deep into this kind of message set to far better music.

To play the race card, if this song was released by an American in English the reaction would range from unnoticed to laughable. We just love goofy music when it comes from other countries.

But if it makes people happy, that’s cool. Just sayin’.

humnumb
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by humnumb » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:33 am

beats me wrote:The message behind the music? LMFAO is 2 albums deep into this kind of message set to far better music.
What kind of messages are there in LMFAO's albums? I thought they worked as investors trading stocks before that.

Psy is 6 albums deep by the way and Gangnam Style is not representative of the scope of his music.

delicioso
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by delicioso » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:25 am

beats me wrote:I’m just going to go ahead and be that guy.

Once every year or two there is a song that becomes hugely popular that I just don’t get why it polarizes the masses. It’s no reflection on the production or the artist personally or musically. To me this is the Korean Ricky Martin’s Living La Vida Loca set to techno music.

From the gushing about the video on the first page I fully expected to be blown away visually. There’s nothing to be blown away by. It’s a dude doing goofy dancing in different locations. Hardly original or worth getting fixated on over and over.

The message behind the music? LMFAO is 2 albums deep into this kind of message set to far better music.

To play the race card, if this song was released by an American in English the reaction would range from unnoticed to laughable. We just love goofy music when it comes from other countries.

But if it makes people happy, that’s cool. Just sayin’.
Your post kinda reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQhIMFy-stM

beats me
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by beats me » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:23 pm

humnumb wrote:
beats me wrote:The message behind the music? LMFAO is 2 albums deep into this kind of message set to far better music.
What kind of messages are there in LMFAO's albums? I thought they worked as investors trading stocks before that.

Psy is 6 albums deep by the way and Gangnam Style is not representative of the scope of his music.

Again, no reflection on the artist and his catalog or history. He wrote a goofy song and made a goofy video that blew up huge. I don’t think he was expecting that.

LMFAO is party music that makes fun of partiers, every track. One of the members is record producer and Motown records founder Berry Gordy’s son. Suppose we should also give them less respect for that in, in the industry.

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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by darkenedsoul » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:45 pm

I am glad I dislike this stuff ((c)rap in general).....one and only one I give props to is Grand Master Flash and the furious five - The Message. That's the only (c)rap I had respect for. I dislike it and hip-hop as well. Not my cup of tea. For me, metal, blues, extreme metal, folk (scandinavian stuff with pagan/black metal roots), dark ambient, old stuff like Isley Brothers (they were good back in the day for the club scene for hooking up lolz). But to each his own.....
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ShelLuser
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Re: PSY 'Gangnam style' - K-Pop

Post by ShelLuser » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:34 am

Not directly aimed at Vivo but I'm merely using his comments for, well, a rant I guess...
Vivo wrote:
ShelLuser wrote:
Vivo wrote:But, I feel music has become to much about the back up dancers, the set design and the light show.

We've forgotten what a real performance LOOKS like.
Uhm.... :?

Don't you mean what it sounds like? :wink:
No, I mean what it LOOKS like, meaning just some musicians playing their instruments on a stage. Meaning, no back up dancers, no elaborate set design and light show.

If people think that just watching musicians play their instrument on stage is boring then they were really not that into their **MUSIC** were they?
I've given this a little more thought (as mentioned a few times above; in general I do agree with Vivo) and now I can't help myself wonder....

First (for context): During the time Britney Spears came along with her song "Baby one more time..." I was working on a department which had a radio on. Never bothered me, but it did 'hit' me then and there that this particular song (and many others) were basically playing at least once every hour. Hearing it 2 or 3 times during a working day was no exception.

If you hear something a couple of times you can actually take a liking to it. Or end up never wanting to hear it again I suppose ;-) I think this is part of the deal.

Now.. Not caring very much for 'popular' or such but still having an open mind for a different styles I eventually came across JPop and other Asian music and in general (there are always exceptions) took quite a liking to it. Although even this is shifting nowadays there were plenty of artists who could give quite a performance without much background or show...

One of the better examples to that (IMO) is "Tamashii no Rufuran" (the original) by Megumi Hayashibara. Lemme check... HERE (youtube link). Its a very slow song, I wouldn't be surprised if some of you won't like it.

Don't get confused; there is a popular remix too. Megumi-kun is a voice actor in a very popular anime ("Neon Genesis Evangelion") and eventually her song ended up being used there, but in a remix. Which made many fans of both genres go "WHOAH!" (yours included).

But what caught me the very first time I heard this was the intro; hardly any backup music, some parts even without any music at all and she still kept going in tune. Make no mistakes here; Megumi-kun even managed to pull that off LIVE on stage as well.

And when comparing that (IMVHO:) musical power to modern Western popular music here I have to concur; here its a lot focussed on show aspects.


Which brings me to.... Some people like the music genre, some people don't.

But there are also plenty of people around who don't like music they can't understand anymore. In your childhood you may have heard plenty of English music and not understanding one word of it, maybe only hearing it again later and wondering "Was that it?!".

Asian music is a bit harder... I have quite some friends who take a big liking in techno / trance and other dance music but can take no liking to JPop from, say, Ayumi Hamasaki (THIS (another youtube link), 'M' above & beyond remix is a very good example of the genre) even though IMVHO her music isn't all that different from dance tracks we get over here (I'm no expect on dance music mind you).

My take is that it is the language, better put; not understanding it, which puts a lot of people off.

Back to Gangam Style....

Many people consider the videoclip uber funny. Watch it several times because of it.

Is it possible that the music "grew" on them, eventually breaking down the barrier of "I don't understand a word he/she is singing so I don't like it"?


Heck; its that same reason why I think the new (now old) rules of the Eurovision song festival suck; everyone can sing in any language they like instead of being forced to use their native home language.

No; I'm not a fan of the song festival but my gf is (sigh) :-)
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

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