how do you deal with the stigma?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
corygilbert
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how do you deal with the stigma?

Post by corygilbert » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:24 am

I enjoy hearing from this community about a creative tool that I use intensively, I'd like to hear from other musicians who use Ableton to create, who have encountered the "it's not a real instrument.." "you're mixing other peoples music, right?.." (no offense to dj's; its an artform in and of itself.. :D , many people who are otherwise openminded about music in general, don't know how to approach electronic/ computer generated music, they want to like it but don't have context,....How do you make the connection? do you rock? (make sex a show?)... (do you cerebrate? make thought a show...?) I'd like to know, it's hard to connect with non electronic heads sometimes, how do you make your art accesable S[P, AND intriging/ creative/ important?
you know, get naked with the savages... :evil:

MrYellow
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Post by MrYellow » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:35 am

I wrap my hands and feet with bandages and rip up a shirt and hold it
against the hole in my chest......

oh..... stigma!

Use instruments.....

Bit hard to get you confused with a DJ if you have some keys, some drum
pads, an electronic sax, a bass or guitar and a bit of a show.....

The way I look at it, if you pre-mix everything and split it into sections
and play it like a DJ set.... then that's what you are doing.... DJing....

If you write some tunes, record the hard bits, play the rockin bits that
need live movement and mistakes.... No one can argue :-)

edit: oh and it isn't a "band" with 1 person.

-Ben

AdamJay
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Post by AdamJay » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:46 am

i don't make it more accessible.

in my opinion, 99% of the most accessible music is absolute shit.

if i want to hear great music, i'll dig around and find it. so long as it pops up in the first few pages of google... i'll find it, or my friend's will tell me about it. no need to shove it down my throat. and once i find an artist i like, i can keep up with their work through their website. There's still a lot of great music out there i haven't yet discovered. But i can say that things that were made particularly "accessible" to me, and that is to say most of the music that i've heard through national media resources - its all shit.

sorry for the harsh response.
if people don't 'get' my music, they don't get it. They're either going to like it or they're not. Getting it more or less in their face isn't going to change the quality of the music. So i see no need to concentrate on making it more accessible.

as far as trying to explain to the folks why i use a laptop.
well whats more techno than a laptop?
its current, its future, its techno, and its a tool with endless possibilities! The guys that try to tell me their walls of analog gear made in the late 70's and early 80's is more techno than my straigh-outta-Taiwan-box-with-an-LCD, well they can kiss my discography and go broke paying their electric bills. :wink:

Former Pharaoh
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Post by Former Pharaoh » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:57 am

I haven't encountered any stigma personally. Only once, i bumped into this drummer and i told him i use my laptop for creating electronica music and he responded, "Oh that shit is easy". So i asked what programs he used and he said he didn't. He just assumed music programing done with computers would be a breeze being that he was an acoustic drummer.
Being that I am a nice guy, i brought my little lappy to his pad with Live and Bidule loaded. I let him mess around a bit and that was that.
Last I heard, no joke, he sold his kit for a computer setup. He had a nice DW kit too!!!

montrealbreaks
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Post by montrealbreaks » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:40 am

Piss on stigma.

I write every track I create. That makes me a composer. I record, mix and master every track too (and not too badly given my crappy bedroom listening environment). That makes me an engineer (albeit one handicapped by my studio). There's a lot of musicians who can't compose for shit, and fewer still who know how to coax a decent sounding mix out of a multitrack recording. If some musician is giving you snot, check and see if they if they have either of these skills - if not, throw this angle at 'em.

My recommendation to those of you who have "stigma" about composing electronic music is do what I did to take the piss out of a DJ with attitude. I learned to mix and scratch better than him - in a manner of months no less. Once you can better your critics at their own game, then they usually shut up fast.

This is why I am teaching myself how to play piano right now - I am sick of attitude from "real" musicians - ironically enough, usually guitarists I find... Maybe that's just me though.

Well, if you are being given grief by a real virtuoso, like a dude who can play like Joe Satriani or somebody starts giving you attitude and you know that you can't beat 'em at their own game, ask 'em how well they sing. ;)

If you are dealing with a multi-talented genius, then he's probably not copping attitude. The real icons of talent, creativity and professionalism are usually gracious enough to not lord it over people who are still coming up and teaching themselves.

Lastly, if forced I could mention that music is only my hobby, and that I have seven years of post secondary education plus fourteen years of experience in my professional field, and I hold an unusually high position for a professional of my age in my organization. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, buster.

I have changed my username; Now posting as:


M. Bréqs

drush
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Re: how do you deal with the stigma?

Post by drush » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:47 am

corygilbert wrote:...hear from other musicians who use Ableton to create, who have encountered the "it's not a real instrument.." "you're mixing other peoples music, right?.."

... I'd like to know, it's hard to connect with non electronic heads sometimes, how do you make your art accesable S[P, AND intriging/ creative/ important?
seriously: who cares.

Pitch Black
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Post by Pitch Black » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:12 am

THE LONG ANSWER:

Cory, you use a phrase that I think is key to the discussion: "electronic/computer generated music". I believe it is me, a human, that generates the music. In this way I believe the computer or the gear is analogous to the novelist's typewriter - the typewriter records the novelists output, It doesn't tell him what story to tell.

It's been said the music industry is built on two sets of dreams: The dreams of the fans about the stars, and the dreams of musicians to BECOME stars. Unfortunately, this has led to quite an appealing fiction - [to quote a Roland Groovebox slogan] "if you can mix records, you can make music with THIS, the TB blah blah blah" - as if it is the gear that makes the music. This pervasive fiction: "if you just have THIS piece of gear - you will become a star/make better music/have respect of your artistic peers/get laid more, is what leads to the misconception that the music is computer generated. It is HUMAN generated.

We have ended up with a situation where people - musicians and punters alike - place too much emphasis on the "how", rather that the "what" and the "why" of music - the latter two are far more interesting questions IMHO. I'd liken it to: so you are now fluent in a new language, but what do you actually have to say?

This leads us back to the human. In music, the way to "get across" to people is to transmit your personal "what" and "why" as openly, directly and honestly to the audience as you possibly can, so that they feel what you are feeling. If what excites you is the incredible MAX/MSP patch you built to generate your sounds, then for God's sake, get it up there on a big projection screen so we can all see it! If you make Dance Music, then dance as you play! If you wrote it in the studio, and shook it like a maniac while you were all alone at 4am, then groove out in front of the audience. It is NOT "showbiz" or "lowest common denominator" to do so if that is the way you truly feel about your music.

PEOPLE LOVE HUMANS. Its an inescapable fact. When we connect with a piece of Art, we are in fact connecting to, and relating to, the state of the Artist: "Wow - they felt so strongly about that, they made it into a piece of art - now I feel it too". Its the direct human connection we all seek. "Art exists to reveal mystic truths" they say. Explore your own personal truths to the point where you find something that truly excites you, and then develop your skills/techniques to present that passion honestly to your audience, and they won't help but come away moved.


THE SHORT ANSWER:

I have spiky orange hair and jump up an down a lot, because that's what I like to do - put energy into people :-)
MBP M1Max | MacOS 12.7.2 | Live 11.3.20 | Babyface Pro FS | Push 3 (tethered) | a whole other bunch of controllers
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Rahlo
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Post by Rahlo » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:17 am

Pitch Black wrote:PEOPLE LOVE HUMANS. Its an inescapable fact. When we connect with a piece of Art, we are in fact connecting to, and relating to, the state of the Artist: "Wow - they felt so strongly about that, they made it into a piece of art - now I feel it too". Its the direct human connection we all seek. "Art exists to reveal mystic truths" they say. Explore your own personal truths to the point where you find something that truly excites you, and then develop your skills/techniques to present that passion honestly to your audience, and they won't help but come away moved.
yo, that was quite well said. . . for an electronic musician! :wink:
peace,

rahlo
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rahlo.com

MacBook Pro, Live 8, Reason 4, Akai MPD 32, Akai MPK 49, Akai APC 40, Metric Halo ULN-2 expanded, Apogee Duet.

Pitch Black
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Post by Pitch Black » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:59 am

rahlo wrote: yo, that was quite well said. . . for an electronic musician! :wink:

i'm not an animal!... I'm a maaan!!! :wink:


cheers!
:D

boomklik
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Post by boomklik » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:14 am

my connection is with my cpu.

raapie
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..

Post by raapie » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:52 am

always interesting discussions.

the question is:
Are you making music or are you making sound?

Don't say, 'sound is music', because a fingersnap for example is not music per se.

[/b]
Marco Raaphorst

music, sound & story maker

https://melodiefabriek.com

onyxashanti
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Post by onyxashanti » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:11 am

when i were a lad...
I went to Grambling University, a HBUC [historically black university/college]. at the time, they were reknown for having one of the best marching bands in the world, and used to travel all over to march and perform. this reputation had started in the 50's and 60's. one of their trademakes was to be able to play the latest hits and do choreographed dance routines, on the field, during the halftime shows at the football games.

being that Grambling was located in louisiana, in the 50's, and that the marching band was all black, they were told that what they did was easy in comparison to traditional drum and bugle corp routines, and, in certain circles, were dissed accordingly. that was when they introduced the precision drill.

at the beginning of the show, they would do a full drum and bugle corp style precision drill. a way of establishing that they were a real band and that they could do anything any other marching band could do...THEN they would hit 'em with the funky routines and hot beats.

when i play out with my wind synth, i ususally start with physically modelled sax sounds first because people can make a connection between the instrument and the sound. then, once i've established that i can "play" in the sense that they are familiar with, i start hittin em with all the freaky shit. without the "precision drill" they would have just assumed i was a wierdo who only played wierd shit rather than an artist who "chooses" to play wierd shit. i even had to purposely make mistakes during the fast playing bits, just so i could pretend to adjust something on the horn, letting them see that i was actually playing.

if you do something dextrous and relateable at the start of your set, you demonstrate that you know what you're doing and you generate trust in your audience that they aren't getting duped by some guy who is pressing play and doing nothing. they want to know that their collective action/inaction is affecting the groove. trigger a few short loops together, by hand to create a, possibly sloppy yet energetic and relateable, groove that will demostrate that you are in possesion of all the constuent parts and are putting them together artistically, NOW, rather than seemingly just pushing play. THEN do your normal set. you'll see the difference...

onyx
Last edited by onyxashanti on Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

MrYellow
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Post by MrYellow » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:18 am

wind synth
Yamaha WX5???

Isn't it just the most fun ever!!!

Plug it into a crunchy messed up noisy bitch of a patch and wail away :-D

Love it sooooo much!

-Ben

onyxashanti
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Post by onyxashanti » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:23 am

i won't do a live set without mine, even if i just play triggered samples. it looks a horn, so people automatically just assume that, when you break it out, that you are playing live. especially good with kontakt.

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:41 pm

Electronic music is 'not real' in the same way that the internet is not a magazine

Often magazine writers write about the 'coming of age' of the internet - realating to blogs and such phenomena, to a trad journo blogs seem analogous to magazine writing ('the new journalism')

but essentially they aren't getting it. It's different.

When you see a sci-fi movie and there's a dude in the background waving his hands over colured panels and making "Sqook - mmoOPle snonk!! " noises

that's us up there... not some session jazz bassist. In the future the geek shall inherit the earth!

can't fault my logic :)

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