i've been in denial about this for a couple of years now, well since LIVE v.2 - when i first started noticing a difference and i was transitioning from logic to live. anyway, i am 100% convinced there is a sound quality issue with live's output. i'm not an audio engineer so don't crucify me for not using proper language to describe the situation...
if i had to use one word to describe the output of live compared to logic, it would have to be flat or dull. even when i *don't* use any warping/time stretching features, it still comes out dull compared to the sonic richness and clarity of logic. this is not a case of artifacting due to timestretched audio rendering on the fly. in fact, taking a track that was done in logic importing it into live arrange mode (again, NO warping being applied) and playing it back at the exact bpm, will still (albeit slightly) degrade the quality. i don't get it.
seems like i read a definitive post from mr.henke a year or so ago about how live's engine creates and processes sound (did some digging but couldn't find in the archives), and if i remember correctly the result was for the most part an additive process - factoring in time stretching, effecting, eqing - and this is where some points were being made about output quality. also seems like there were some posts around the same time saying that live was fun to play with, but technically still a toy and doesn't (can't) compare to a true pro audio app like logic/cubase/etc in terms of output quality.
anyway, it's crushing my soul and i don't really want to walk away from live, but the quality i'm getting is unacceptable for public consumption, imho. if anybody even vaguely feels like they're experiencing the same thing, please let me know that i am in fact not losing my marbles and going mad...
sound quality: live vs. logic
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Per Boysen
- Posts: 1058
- Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:11 pm
- Location: Sweden
- Contact:
Sure, I agree that stuff in Logic has the possibility of sounding "more expensive" than in Live. But I can't say I care much about that because fact is I use Live for performance strength and not for hifi audio quality. I work in both applications and sometimes go with Live for musical reasons. However, I'm happy when I can mix my Live projects in Logic by piping channels from Live to the Logic mixer through ReWire. however, this is only possible when no third party plug-ins are used in Live. As a result of that I try to hold back on the third-party effects in Live and put them in Logic instead, on the incoming ReWire channels (i.e. the same audio tracks that are running in Live.
some people say that Nuendo sounds even better than Logic but I won't leave Logic for that, because I'm using Logic for the great effects and musical midi implementation - and to be able to work very fast. What's most important in music - audio quality or emotion?
some people say that Nuendo sounds even better than Logic but I won't leave Logic for that, because I'm using Logic for the great effects and musical midi implementation - and to be able to work very fast. What's most important in music - audio quality or emotion?
Public consumption?
Make two versions of your track, one in Logic, one in Live 4.
Record them on a cd. Go out into the public and ask if they can tell the difference or if they even care. Don't ask studio people.
Sure , Cubase and Logic seem to sound slightly "different" but in the end it comes down to the power of your music and creativeness.
Make two versions of your track, one in Logic, one in Live 4.
Record them on a cd. Go out into the public and ask if they can tell the difference or if they even care. Don't ask studio people.
Sure , Cubase and Logic seem to sound slightly "different" but in the end it comes down to the power of your music and creativeness.
thanks per, just needed to hear someone else was hearing it too.
also did some digging in the archives and see that this has been discussed a million times over and i've been snoozing on it.
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
and komplex, yeah the average joe public won't be able to hear a difference between the two - but i do hear the difference, and when it comes to making a decision about putting it to wax, i wouldn't press a lesser sounding quality track to vinyl *knowing* that a better/cleaner version of the track could be made.
but hey, that's just me.
also did some digging in the archives and see that this has been discussed a million times over and i've been snoozing on it.
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
and komplex, yeah the average joe public won't be able to hear a difference between the two - but i do hear the difference, and when it comes to making a decision about putting it to wax, i wouldn't press a lesser sounding quality track to vinyl *knowing* that a better/cleaner version of the track could be made.
but hey, that's just me.
altho you are pressing on "vinyl"... it's far from a perfect format for duplicating the original recording.
I don't think you need to worry about it. You should be able to get a great sounding track out of Live without too much fuss especially if you're using plugins and not just audio loops. Heaps of Ableton users have been getting great results regardless of the final format and nobody can pick the exact production process, especially after any mastering or whatever.
Did anyone complain about your last vinyl release? (if you did it on Ableton Live)
I don't think you need to worry about it. You should be able to get a great sounding track out of Live without too much fuss especially if you're using plugins and not just audio loops. Heaps of Ableton users have been getting great results regardless of the final format and nobody can pick the exact production process, especially after any mastering or whatever.
Did anyone complain about your last vinyl release? (if you did it on Ableton Live)
Yes.
I noticed this upon embarking on using Live as a production tool.
But, it helps me create more music and have more fun, and i'm getting to know how to get a good tight sound with it too... all we need is PDC and groove quantize, and i'm happy.
The last track I did with Live got signed within a week of me finishing it, (well not even - still needs some eq etc), had 3 labels after it! One guy noticed the mix lacked 'clarity' though.
Minimise warping, use MIDI/recycled beats where possible, unless warped beats sound better, and use quality plugins. And keep the 'Hi Q' switch on.
I noticed this upon embarking on using Live as a production tool.
But, it helps me create more music and have more fun, and i'm getting to know how to get a good tight sound with it too... all we need is PDC and groove quantize, and i'm happy.
The last track I did with Live got signed within a week of me finishing it, (well not even - still needs some eq etc), had 3 labels after it! One guy noticed the mix lacked 'clarity' though.
Minimise warping, use MIDI/recycled beats where possible, unless warped beats sound better, and use quality plugins. And keep the 'Hi Q' switch on.
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muthafunka
- Posts: 2247
- Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:28 pm
- Location: Tokyo
drush wrote:
oh god, not again...
Beat me to the punch d, I was just thinking this thread had very few posts considering the title too
lol
here's the thing, Live makes you sound not like a pop record.ok, here's a theory, minus all the 'if you had an oscilloscope' stuff *ahem*--
when you set the master fader in Live 4 right on the 'detente' line towards the top of the meter, you will get clipping. When you set the levels higher on the individual tracks, such that the run in the "red", you will not necessarily get cliipping/red in the master track. Other apps might let you 'run the board' a little hotter, visually speaking.
I'd agree if you like the sound, no big deal. It has much less to do with the software, more with whatever mastering you apply (or not). Listen to Aphex Twin "26 mixes for cash". I'd assert that some of the tracks sound "not quite optimal for public consumption" yet I'm sure Mr. James was able to go shopping for a mobile howitzer with the proceeds
.UTENZIL a tool... of the muse.
to date, i now consider live my "native app". it's where i like to start, where i like to finish, and definitely the app i can work the fastest and most fluently in - and in doing so, ultimately reaping the greatest personal creativity. imo, clip envelopes are one of the greatest things to happen to audio software conceptually. if i never had to leave live to produce a track, that would make me one happy crap tossin monkey...
i can accept that in order for software to achieve certain capabilities, there might be so-called compromises along the way (for god's sake, max/msp definitely compromised their interface). it's all good. the ableton's gotta do what they gotta do to get it done, and since v.1.5 i have approved with my purchasing dollars time and time again. in fact my most recent batch of tracks revolve almost exclusively around the operator synth i recently purchased. all this thread was intended to do was to clear my own personal confusion about the perceived quality of output i was hearing. so all you "here we go again" types, *MEH*.
all of my tracks that have gone to wax have been done in logic to date (well, some old ones were actually done with gear), so i don't really have a lot to compare personally. i did do one remix that went to wax that was done in live v2.1.3 a while ago, and unfortunately it's probably the weakest thing sonically i've produced - but i'll share responsibility there in terms of things i could have improved routing and eq-wise in retrospect. *but*, all eq issues aside, on this particular vinyl where there are two other remixes and the original track all side by side - all coming from different people and different studio setups, when needle dropping the record i was *shocked* at how noticeable the sonic quality difference was among the different remixes, namely mine which i had done in live (granted there was a lot of warping going on in the majority of the clips). once i finished the remix in live, to get better quality i tried rendering all of the tracks individually from live and then re-tracking them in logic (the ver of logic i was using at the time was not rewire friendly), i tried creating loops out of my trickery in live and pulling it into logic and recreating the track that was in live, and everytime on output of live it just sounded compromised. even with professional studio mastering applied to it at the end, it basically just magnifed the problems and made the difference more noticible. so i took the plunge, rendered straight outta live, and it felt (sounded) almost like i had handed my final version of the remix over on a cassette tape... muffled, flat and definitely lacked clarity and crispness.
so i've got almost 10 new tracks all done in live 4, mostly midi, little-to-no warping in the creation process and retentive eq-ing going on all over the place. i can still hear the difference, and unless i can figure out a way to clean them up (i just got logic 7 yesterday), i will most likely only be using them for live performance and not wax. no big deal. with regard to the future, i will probably most definitely be using live with logic in a very similar manner that per b. outlined. seems like thats the happy balance until live becomes the true killer app. and trust, i'll be the first in line with dollars in fist when it does.
regardless, thanks everyone for the feedback and the stories!
i can accept that in order for software to achieve certain capabilities, there might be so-called compromises along the way (for god's sake, max/msp definitely compromised their interface). it's all good. the ableton's gotta do what they gotta do to get it done, and since v.1.5 i have approved with my purchasing dollars time and time again. in fact my most recent batch of tracks revolve almost exclusively around the operator synth i recently purchased. all this thread was intended to do was to clear my own personal confusion about the perceived quality of output i was hearing. so all you "here we go again" types, *MEH*.
all of my tracks that have gone to wax have been done in logic to date (well, some old ones were actually done with gear), so i don't really have a lot to compare personally. i did do one remix that went to wax that was done in live v2.1.3 a while ago, and unfortunately it's probably the weakest thing sonically i've produced - but i'll share responsibility there in terms of things i could have improved routing and eq-wise in retrospect. *but*, all eq issues aside, on this particular vinyl where there are two other remixes and the original track all side by side - all coming from different people and different studio setups, when needle dropping the record i was *shocked* at how noticeable the sonic quality difference was among the different remixes, namely mine which i had done in live (granted there was a lot of warping going on in the majority of the clips). once i finished the remix in live, to get better quality i tried rendering all of the tracks individually from live and then re-tracking them in logic (the ver of logic i was using at the time was not rewire friendly), i tried creating loops out of my trickery in live and pulling it into logic and recreating the track that was in live, and everytime on output of live it just sounded compromised. even with professional studio mastering applied to it at the end, it basically just magnifed the problems and made the difference more noticible. so i took the plunge, rendered straight outta live, and it felt (sounded) almost like i had handed my final version of the remix over on a cassette tape... muffled, flat and definitely lacked clarity and crispness.
so i've got almost 10 new tracks all done in live 4, mostly midi, little-to-no warping in the creation process and retentive eq-ing going on all over the place. i can still hear the difference, and unless i can figure out a way to clean them up (i just got logic 7 yesterday), i will most likely only be using them for live performance and not wax. no big deal. with regard to the future, i will probably most definitely be using live with logic in a very similar manner that per b. outlined. seems like thats the happy balance until live becomes the true killer app. and trust, i'll be the first in line with dollars in fist when it does.
regardless, thanks everyone for the feedback and the stories!
wow. I'm wondering if there is a significant difference between Live on Mac and Live on PC?i tried creating loops out of my trickery in live and pulling it into logic and recreating the track that was in live, and everytime on output of live it just sounded compromised. even with professional studio mastering applied to it at the end, it basically just magnifed the problems and made the difference more noticible. so i took the plunge, rendered straight outta live, and it felt (sounded) almost like i had handed my final version of the remix over on a cassette tape... muffled, flat and definitely lacked clarity and crispness.
UTENZIL a tool... of the muse.
what i don't understand is we've had 10 or 12 threads on this subject, so why does it keep getting re-hashed? why aren't old threads resurrected instead?
if you want to call it a toy, then call it a toy.
for me, its a "toy" that was used to complete an entire 2x12" album, several remixes, and several EPs.
Does it sound "Different" than other apps? quite possibly, but minimally.
Does it sound "Worse" or "Better" than other apps? Well that is simply a matter of opinion.
This entire thread is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. I think that Logic and Pro Tools sound sterile compared to Live. To me, Live has character, it has warmth. The same kind of character and warmth i found in my own hardware several years ago.
Live with its character and use it, or use Logic.
there is simply no need to have a conversation now that has been had countless times before. Its getting to the point where i see this topic and my knee jerk reaction is to roll my eyes... and quite frankly my knees and eyes are getting tired of that.
if you want to call it a toy, then call it a toy.
for me, its a "toy" that was used to complete an entire 2x12" album, several remixes, and several EPs.
Does it sound "Different" than other apps? quite possibly, but minimally.
Does it sound "Worse" or "Better" than other apps? Well that is simply a matter of opinion.
This entire thread is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. I think that Logic and Pro Tools sound sterile compared to Live. To me, Live has character, it has warmth. The same kind of character and warmth i found in my own hardware several years ago.
Live with its character and use it, or use Logic.
there is simply no need to have a conversation now that has been had countless times before. Its getting to the point where i see this topic and my knee jerk reaction is to roll my eyes... and quite frankly my knees and eyes are getting tired of that.
exactly. The reason I posted again, is thinking that maybe some people won't let this go because it's different on Mac. But, AJ, you're just the guy to settle it, I think: you've used Live on Mac and PC, do you see any difference?if you want to call it a toy, then call it a toy.
for me, its a "toy" that was used to complete an entire 2x12" album, several remixes, and several EPs.
Does it sound "Different" than other apps? quite possibly, but minimally.
Does it sound "Worse" or "Better" than other apps? Well that is simply a matter of opinion.
This entire thread is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. I think that Logic and Pro Tools sound sterile compared to Live. To me, Live has character, it has warmth.
If not, then:
Live with its character and use it, or use Logic.
UTENZIL a tool... of the muse.
notice about the 4th post down, it was acknowledged. and, why is it that elitest attitude sporting resident message board types always feel the need to broadcast and point fingers at newer members for redundancy or validity about posting content? last i checked this was a public forum, and i was encouraged as a live user to post my questions and concerns here.AdamJay wrote:what i don't understand is we've had 10 or 12 threads on this subject, so why does it keep getting re-hashed? why aren't old threads resurrected instead?
that's great, in your mind honestly, do they sound different than your previous releases? i'd love to put em side by side and do a taste test. perhaps you could volunteer some of your material for us to hear the difference, or supposed lack thereof.AdamJay wrote:if you want to call it a toy, then call it a toy.
for me, its a "toy" that was used to complete an entire 2x12" album, several remixes, and several EPs.
i think this can be negated, it wouldn't be such an "annoying" reoccuring thread if it wasn't obviously a public concern.AdamJay wrote:Does it sound "Different" than other apps? quite possibly, but minimally.
Does it sound "Worse" or "Better" than other apps? Well that is simply a matter of opinion.
i think that statement is a matter of opinion.AdamJay wrote:This entire thread is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact.
heh, yeah it's probably called line noise!AdamJay wrote:I think that Logic and Pro Tools sound sterile compared to Live. To me, Live has character, it has warmth. The same kind of character and warmth i found in my own hardware several years ago.
brilliant. i bet ableton's marketing team is scrambling to sign you up. are they going to put that on the box for version 5?AdamJay wrote:Live with its character and use it, or use Logic.
again, obviously there is, seeing how it hasn't been put to bed yet. the thing about threading in a public forum is it's a choice, choose the freedom to skip the thread, but you apparently felt it was more important to share the fact that you see this thread as a waste of time.AdamJay wrote:there is simply no need to have a conversation now that has been had countless times before. Its getting to the point where i see this topic and my knee jerk reaction is to roll my eyes... and quite frankly my knees and eyes are getting tired of that.
which now, it officially is. good day sir.
if you see me pointing fingers at newer members for re-hashing a 2 year old argument, simply because i've been here a while and not because its a 2 year old argument that will never be settled... well then thats the way you choose to see it.
This subject accomplishes about as much as political and religious threads do. And while i don't condone starting political and/or religious threads, i'm going to speak up when the same subject has surfaced on multiple threads only to make the same observations and hit the same roadblock at the end of the thread. its redundant, its boring, it never ends. Start a thread on the subject that hasn't said all the same things the 10 other threads have, and i'll happily chime in with something of more substance.
As far as comparing my material made with Live vs. my material made with MPC's, Waldorfs, etc. Well of course they sound different than my previous releases. The more music i write, the more my music changes, the better it gets. The things i've written in Live sound better than the work i did with any other tool. But i cannot say that its because Live sounds better, all i can say is that i've progressed as a musician and that i am happy with Live. I've honed my skills since switching to Live. In this situation we cannot make an A/B comparison. The oranges were harvested in 2001 and the apples were picked in 2005.
But what the hell i'll throw together some .aac's and post an apples and oranges comparsion later today...
This subject accomplishes about as much as political and religious threads do. And while i don't condone starting political and/or religious threads, i'm going to speak up when the same subject has surfaced on multiple threads only to make the same observations and hit the same roadblock at the end of the thread. its redundant, its boring, it never ends. Start a thread on the subject that hasn't said all the same things the 10 other threads have, and i'll happily chime in with something of more substance.
As far as comparing my material made with Live vs. my material made with MPC's, Waldorfs, etc. Well of course they sound different than my previous releases. The more music i write, the more my music changes, the better it gets. The things i've written in Live sound better than the work i did with any other tool. But i cannot say that its because Live sounds better, all i can say is that i've progressed as a musician and that i am happy with Live. I've honed my skills since switching to Live. In this situation we cannot make an A/B comparison. The oranges were harvested in 2001 and the apples were picked in 2005.
But what the hell i'll throw together some .aac's and post an apples and oranges comparsion later today...