LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
H20nly
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Location: The Wild West

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:52 pm

RD444 wrote:
H20nly wrote:i hate it when the auto-update feature on my paper manual fails. :x

robble robble robble!!!
Theres a difference between update the manual. ..and ...actually mentioning a really unprofessional pdc issue..thats always been there...

Didn't the beta testers say "when I add loads of plugs the automation goes out of time"
loads of - n. - technical term meaning more variables than i care to count. sentiment often followed by an asserted shift in feigned responsibility.

Surreal
Posts: 560
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Surreal » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:03 pm

RD444 wrote:
  • i make music not computer programs
Ok.
RD444 wrote: [*]Should a sequencer play stuff in time with itself

Again, I think that this IS a valid complaint.
RD444 wrote: [*]Ableton live are lazy people that cannot be bothered with stuff being professional


'Lazy' is the sentiment that I take issue with. It assumes many things. Two big assumptions are that they are simply not working on it and that it is a trivial fix.
RD444 wrote: [*]by professional i mean making a sequencer(like all the others) that plays in time.

Again, complain away. That is a reasonable complaint.
RD444 wrote: [*]abletons not your mate [/list]
Sure, but they are people--Human beings--and I am a human being in a position to empathize. Deciding how to spend your time--in any endeavor, but software especially--is a frustrating fight. unless you, somehow, have enough time to solve every problem, you never win. Maybe you don't lose, but there will always be something left to do. that is the challenge of solving non trivial problems.

tw1nstates
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by tw1nstates » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:06 pm

Live has got screwy timing.

It's pretty simple.

If I play something from Itunes alongside Ableton they drift.

I have posted about this on the forums before.

It seems to render out ok,

But there is something funny going on with the timing in live.

I reckon it's a fairly deep thing as they have known about this for ages....

Possibly related to the PDC issues?
I slipped into a daze, whilst I was there I heard the most startling music, it was at once familiar and alien, reassuring and unsettling.
https://soundcloud.com/fearoftherave

kanuck
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by kanuck » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:01 pm

tw1nstates wrote:
If I play something from Itunes alongside Ableton they drift.
This is not a solid test, if you are even 0.01 ms off for starting the tracks together, the gap (0.01ms) will start to grow exponentially through time and eventually it'll be large enough for you to hear.

CooCooCaCha
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:24 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by CooCooCaCha » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:33 pm

kanuck wrote:
tw1nstates wrote:
If I play something from Itunes alongside Ableton they drift.
This is not a solid test, if you are even 0.01 ms off for starting the tracks together, the gap (0.01ms) will start to grow exponentially through time and eventually it'll be large enough for you to hear.
That's only if the tracks are different tempo's. If you, for example, played the same exact song they would just be offset from each other.

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:16 pm

CooCooCaCha wrote:That's only if the tracks are different tempo's. If you, for example, played the same exact song they would just be offset from each other.
No. If you play 2 identical Live sets from 2 identical laptops with identical soundcards and setup, they will drift out of beat from each other every 5 to 10 minutes. This happens everytime we play live. So we usually just nudge like a DJ, when the timing starts to get sloppy. We figured it was at least better to nudge manualy, then using midi sync. We gave up on midi sync years ago. At least with this method we are able to manualy corect the timing during the set.
? ? ? ? ?

TabSel
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by TabSel » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:24 pm

ze2be wrote:
CooCooCaCha wrote:That's only if the tracks are different tempo's. If you, for example, played the same exact song they would just be offset from each other.
No. If you play 2 identical Live sets from 2 identical laptops with identical soundcards and setup, they will drift out of beat from each other every 5 to 10 minutes. This happens everytime we play live. So we usually just nudge like a DJ, when the timing starts to get sloppy. We figured it was at least better to nudge manualy, then using midi sync. We gave up on midi sync years ago. At least with this method we are able to manualy corect the timing during the set.
you have to digitally sync the two soundcards (wordclock for example)

but this really has nothing to do at all with pdc issues within live.

live is perfectly digital synced to the soundcard used. pdc is something different.

ze2be
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Location: Mos Eisley

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:42 pm

TabSel wrote:
ze2be wrote:
CooCooCaCha wrote:That's only if the tracks are different tempo's. If you, for example, played the same exact song they would just be offset from each other.
No. If you play 2 identical Live sets from 2 identical laptops with identical soundcards and setup, they will drift out of beat from each other every 5 to 10 minutes. This happens everytime we play live. So we usually just nudge like a DJ, when the timing starts to get sloppy. We figured it was at least better to nudge manualy, then using midi sync. We gave up on midi sync years ago. At least with this method we are able to manualy corect the timing during the set.
you have to digitally sync the two soundcards (wordclock for example)

but this really has nothing to do at all with pdc issues within live.

live is perfectly digital synced to the soundcard used. pdc is something different.
Yes, I know that. I was just responding to what he said, and just wanted to confirm that it does actually drift under these circomstances.

When you say digital sync, do you mean normal midi sync over midi cable, or something else? Please excuse me I havent been doing midi sync for years. But I read it hasnt changed much. Oh we did actually try again I think when 8 was relleased, and we still could not get a stable sync over midi.
? ? ? ? ?

TabSel
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by TabSel » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:56 pm

Google wordclock

Has nothing to do with MIDI

tw1nstates
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by tw1nstates » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:14 pm

Using the same track, bounced out of live, it drifts.

The timing is funny in live.

Simple.

120 bpm is 120 bpm is 120 bpm.

Not with live

It's annoying as hell.

So, my guess is that the core of the program has got something screwy going on with the timing.

The Pdc issues are also timing based.

Don't know why they can't get it right, but it's definitely an issue.

But of course humming to midi is more important *sheesh*
I slipped into a daze, whilst I was there I heard the most startling music, it was at once familiar and alien, reassuring and unsettling.
https://soundcloud.com/fearoftherave

tw1nstates
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:00 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by tw1nstates » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:14 pm

Using the same track, bounced out of live, it drifts.

The timing is funny in live.

Simple.

120 bpm is 120 bpm is 120 bpm.

Not with live

It's annoying as hell.

So, my guess is that the core of the program has got something screwy going on with the timing.

The Pdc issues are also timing based.

Don't know why they can't get it right, but it's definitely an issue.

But of course humming to midi is more important *sheesh*
I slipped into a daze, whilst I was there I heard the most startling music, it was at once familiar and alien, reassuring and unsettling.
https://soundcloud.com/fearoftherave

CooCooCaCha
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Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:24 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by CooCooCaCha » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:39 pm

tw1nstates wrote: But of course humming to midi is more important *sheesh*
This pisses me off to no end. They spend the time making three different algorithms for audio to midi and yet they can't fix these PDC issues. I've lost a lot of faith in Ableton over this issue.

Akshara
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Akshara » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:14 pm

My upgrade decision will mostly be based upon whether this PDC issue has been addressed or not, specifically with regard to third party plugins. The new features are cool; yet for me, timing sync with tempo based effects takes priority.

CooCooCaCha
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by CooCooCaCha » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:53 pm

THIS IS ABOUT LIVE 8:

I loaded a kickdrum into simpler with the following effects chain:
Simpler > Pro-Q > Pro-C > VolumeShaper

As you can see the kick is delayed in VolumeShaper because Live is not compensating for the delay caused by Pro-Q and Pro-C and the kickdrum will shift back and forth in VolumeShaper if I add or remove plugins in the fx chain.

EDIT: I took down the picture and edited my response. Ableton have stated that some features are not yet complete, and although they haven't mentioned PDC I don't want to be the guy spreading information that might change in the coming months. I have left details however, in case people want to learn about the problem people are talking about.

EDIT 2: I'd also like to add that Ableton didn't ask me to change this post. I did it on my own because I was previously misinformed about the Beta and my priority is to beta test right now :)
Last edited by CooCooCaCha on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

William
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by William » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:06 pm

So you're a beta tester?
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/rimby

i7-3770K 3.5GHz
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256GB SSD, 1TB 7200HD

Windows 8

Live 9

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