LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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soultwist
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:03 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by soultwist » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:12 pm

CooCooCaCha wrote:
soultwist wrote:Please...I too would appreciate an explanation of this PDC problem and how I can recreate it. As I understand it, if I don't use too many external plug-ins I'm fine? As in, stacking Live effects has no effect on delay?
I'd recommend checking out the post I made on page 3 with the picture. That should hopefully explain things.


Also
I tested automation delay compensation and it seems that is not fixed either.
Thank you for that! So if instead of PRO-Q/PRO-C you have EQ8 and Auto-Filter for example and then throw on the VolumeShaper - no delay?

paradiddle
Posts: 508
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:21 am
Location: mtl

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by paradiddle » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:17 pm

Can you record (CooCooCaCha) the results on another audio track in realtime and compare? I've sort of done the same test like you but volume shaper seems to be showing the wave a bit late compared to what's
recorded on an audio track.

CooCooCaCha
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:24 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by CooCooCaCha » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:21 pm

soultwist wrote: Thank you for that! So if instead of PRO-Q/PRO-C you have EQ8 and Auto-Filter for example and then throw on the VolumeShaper - no delay?
I tried it with EQ8 and Auto-filter and I didn't see any delay. I guess it's just with third party plugins.
I also tried it with some other third-party plugins to rule out the possibility that it was a fabfilter issue but it behaved the same.

Dragonbreath
Posts: 561
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:34 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Dragonbreath » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:23 pm

casiblake wrote:How about the noticeable delay when recording MIDI using IN / AUTO monitoring modes?? This has been an issue for years that I absolutely must have a fix for, otherwise I'm seriously thinking of investing in Reaper or Bitwig. :?
Pretty sure this behavior is intentional. Im not sure but I think theres a way of switchin it on off from the preference

soultwist
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:03 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by soultwist » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:27 pm

CooCooCaCha wrote:
soultwist wrote: Thank you for that! So if instead of PRO-Q/PRO-C you have EQ8 and Auto-Filter for example and then throw on the VolumeShaper - no delay?
I tried it with EQ8 and Auto-filter and I didn't see any delay. I guess it's just with third party plugins.
I also tried it with some other third-party plugins to rule out the possibility that it was a fabfilter issue but it behaved the same.
Thanks for checking! Looks like I'm...and I would wager most Live users are safe then.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:55 pm

CooCooCaCha wrote:I just got Live 9 and unfortunately found out that the PDC ISSUES ARE NOT FIXED.

Image

As you can see in the image above I loaded a kickdrum into simpler with the following effects chain:
Simpler > Pro-Q > Pro-C > VolumeShaper

As you can see the kick is delayed in VolumeShaper because Live is not compensating for the delay caused by Pro-Q and Pro-C and the kickdrum will shift back and forth in VolumeShaper if I add or remove plugins in the fx chain.

I am incredibly disappointed Ableton. Seriously, wtf.

I cant contain my disappointment of Ableton.

THEY SUCK

its FASCIST Steinberg all over again.

(except Steinberg fixed PDC in 2003)
Last edited by RD444 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

Sean_Clarke
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:20 am
Location: U.K.

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Sean_Clarke » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:56 pm

I would wager most liver use some 3rd party effects....
DAW: Cubase 8 & Live 9 Suit + Push, Bitwig Studio. Desk: X32: Instruments: guitars, v-drums, bass and Electron A4 & RYTM.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:59 pm

wikipedia wrote:Cubase SX 2.0/Cubase SL2.0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinberg_Cubase

2003

Cubase SX2.0 was hailed by many as a huge leap in functionality. One of the most innovative features was called Timewarp. This allowed users to record music either as MIDI and/or Audio in freetime, without click or metronome, and then move the bars and beats grid to the music, automatically creating a tempo track. The Timewarp tool actually allowed the user to move the gridlines.

Cubase SX2.0 also saw the introduction of Full PDC (plug-in delay compensation). Many plug-ins, particularly those which run on DSP Cards such as UAD-1 or Powercore, cannot process their audio within a 1-sample time period and therefore introduce extra latency into the system. Unchecked, this will cause some audio channels to end up out of sync with others. PDC checks all the various latencies introduced by such plug-ins and creates audio delay buffers to ensure that audio from all channels is correctly synchronized.
2013 Ableton have not
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

esp81
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by esp81 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:07 pm

Can we get somebody from Ableton to comment on this?

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:14 pm

soultwist wrote:Please...I too would appreciate an explanation of this PDC problem and how I can recreate it. As I understand it, if I don't use too many external plug-ins I'm fine? As in, stacking Live effects has no effect on delay?

Automation
Tempo synced plugs

go out of time when you add plugs


test one - "automation"
  • make "automation" 1 beat up 1 beat down (filter on off switch will do it)
    add a few plugs
    listen to the "automation" being wrong every plug you add
test 2 - tempo sync plug
  • add a tempo sync plug (like noise gate or LFO filter set to square )
    add a few plugs after is ok
    add a few plugs BEFORE "tempo sync plug" is out of time
    listen to the "tempo sync plug" being wrong every plug you add
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:21 pm

esp81 wrote:Can we get somebody from Ableton to comment on this?
Ableton response will be something like this (UK add):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEYjIZ-K7UE
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

agent314
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by agent314 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:22 pm

Is that only for live playback or does it export that way too?

Is there any way you can use track delay offsets to work around it?

esp81
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by esp81 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:26 pm

There's no real workaround besides not using any 3rd party plugins, which is completely ridiculous for such expensive software. Every other DAW already does this stuff properly.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:58 pm

Super disappointing, this fix was kind of a necessity for me.

paulmaddox
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:44 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by paulmaddox » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:16 pm

This is really poor form - one of the things I was hoping to be sorted for sure :(

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