LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
MrFingerDrums
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by MrFingerDrums » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:00 am

Ablebum should be :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

gisela-idol
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by gisela-idol » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:34 am

I guess there will be some Improvements. They cant have spend all this time to add 2 plugs and getting rid of the bad browser.
But i doubt that it will be totaly fixed. That they finally included session automation must have forced them to deal with the issue somehow. So when the automation is still not compensated but the audio side is better i would think thats ok for now.

siddhu
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by siddhu » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:09 pm

I haven't been posting in the Ableton forum for a while BUT the timing problems in Ableton are very real.

Until I found out about the timing issues I was thinking it was my programming or bad mixing or whatever. I would start out with an incredible groove - exciting and funky, and as I worked on it and it became a complex project, it would suddenly start to lose the feel that was so inspiring at the start.

Once I discovered the PDC/Timing issues, I started to very carefully avoid third party plug-ins as much as possible, never change the order of plug-ins once there was automation on a track, render to audio constantly, etc, to "hold the groove and feel". All in all not a very fun way to work.

I love Live and have been a user since version 1.5 BUT the timing issues are pushing even me away from Live as music is all based on timing.

I can't believe Ableton is totally silent on this issue as it's exploding across the forums. The first rule of PR is to address rumours and problems head on or risk permanent and lasting damage to your reputation. This is especially important in the age of social media.

If Bitwig has rock solid timing/PDC, it's going to seriously change the competitive landscape for Ableton.

c33
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by c33 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:02 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
merges wrote:I don't think they were ever here…
I think they're gonna be here, in a big way with loads of moderation. they're already doing damage control from the forum by hiding it. they're a publicly held company and I'm sure the board would rather make money than enable the freedom of speech that's gone on here for years.
Ehh.. you can't really blame them for removing the link to the forum, but I doubt we're going to see a big increase in moderation.

Anyway, I'm hopeful the PDC issues people are having will continue to be addressed in the Beta and w/ the next release.

I'm still excited for Live 9. I think there's a lot to look forward to.

MrFingerDrums
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by MrFingerDrums » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:24 pm

I excited at the though of a proper production/studio version of Live we were promised back in version 8

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:37 pm

I wonder is there enough people interested in this topic to start some sort of campaign? I would like to raise awareness of these issues, maybe Ableton could be made to at least address these problems, also I've wasted years working with Ableton and I'd like to make sure other people don't do the same.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:39 pm

^ you should get MrFingerDrums to help you. no telling how many logins you'll have if you sign him up.

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:13 pm

well, you can't have automation compensation without doing the audio pdc part first. but once you have audio pdc, then getting the automation compensated should be straightforward, i think?

therefore, i'm a little confused... i did a similar test to others, where i put a long latency effect (in my case, liquidsonics reverberate - it has selectable latency between 0 - 8192 samples, i chose 4096) on a simple 4/4 kick beat. i had two identical tracks (using duplicate) except one had reverberate on, in 100% dry mode, and long latency. the audio output was exactly on top of each other, so ableton was compensating that long latency. that answers one question i had - at least it looks like live is compensating the audio latency on effects too.

but the automation was completely out of time - making an automation curve to allow just the first beat through works perfectly for kick drum track, but has weird effects when automating the gain of reverberate instead - i have to move the cutoff out a beat or so to make it cut off at the right place. this makes no sense, as if they already know (and are actively using) the pdc delay, then they should know the automation delay as well, because it's the same. so yeah, they should fix that.

there are some issues with midi, because midi can go to more than one device - let's say you are recording a mod wheel move, which increases the filter cutoff on the synth as well as brings up the wet level on a compressor, and the compressor has latency. either live also delays all incoming audio by the latency values (which i guess it's already doing, and you can turn this off in live mode), or it has to decide where it should put the midi event - is it realtime, or realtime minus the latency of the compressor (because really, they are seeing that 'live' event at different times), or a separate midi track for each one, or...?

which may be the real automation limiter... really, the reduced latency while monitoring maybe should be a global 'pdc on' or a global 'pdc off', and you pick one. if you set reduced latency while monitoring, and then record a knob twiddle, it's obviously not compensated (nothing is compensated). how should live fix this? should it actually move the automation curve (and maybe even the notes?) when you uncheck record (and now theoretically, it calculated PDC for the whole track, and possibly all others, and makes all tracks back 'in time'?) i'm guessing none of this happens and that track just stays in non-pdc mode forever; adding effects after that could be what pushes the tracks out of time with everything else.

siddhu
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by siddhu » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:17 pm

sdfak1234 wrote:I wonder is there enough people interested in this topic to start some sort of campaign? I would like to raise awareness of these issues, maybe Ableton could be made to at least address these problems, also I've wasted years working with Ableton and I'd like to make sure other people don't do the same.

All it would take is for a major media platform either print or digital (ex. Future Music or CreateDigitalMusic.com) to do a story on Live's timing issues. BAM! Ableton would be all over it then.

Akshara
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Akshara » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:23 pm

theophilus wrote:therefore, i'm a little confused... i did a similar test to others, where i put a long latency effect (in my case, liquidsonics reverberate - it has selectable latency between 0 - 8192 samples, i chose 4096) on a simple 4/4 kick beat. i had two identical tracks (using duplicate) except one had reverberate on, in 100% dry mode, and long latency. the audio output was exactly on top of each other, so ableton was compensating that long latency. that answers one question i had - at least it looks like live is compensating the audio latency on effects too.
Now place a timing dependent effect after that Liquidsonics reverb (i.e. a synced delay, filter, noise gate, arpeggiator or anything that polls Live's timing clock), and you'll notice that the audio itself gets out of sync as well. This was confirmed by Ableton back in Jan 2011 (see this comment), after the community was pulling its hair out trying to figure out what was going on.

I often encounter sound design situations where a timing dependent effect (or several) inserted after a latency inducing effect (or instrument) is desirable. Often the argument in response is a suggestion to just now work that way. Yet in each of the other DAWs that I work with for production, both the audio and automation are compensated for when plugins are used in this manner. The issue isn't with how one works creatively, it's with whether Live is the right tool for the job.

Over time, my opinion has drifted toward Live just not being the right tool for certain kinds of work. What it does well, manipulating audio, it excels at. And as a basic midi tool for composing and getting ideas down, it offers an intuitive and efficient workflow. Depending on the style of music, one can do an entire album project or a score for video entirely within Live, from concept to mastering, and I have. But it just doesn't handle advanced midi or precision automation and timing all that well. And I genuinely feel that Ableton doesn't have a strong enough desire to see it happen yet, not at this time anyway (see this comment).

However, I still feel that it is important and worth being addressed, which is why I'm participating in the discussion. Quoting my post from page 14...
Akshara wrote:
Akshara wrote:
Ghost Mutt wrote:how many is a 'few' and what are they?
1) Any timing dependent VST or AU (i.e. tempo synced delays, filters, gates, arps, etc.) placed in a series after any other plugin with latency;
2) Any VST or AU plugin with sufficient processing latency (i.e. high-end EQs and dynamics processors);
3) As of Live 8.3, any of the built-in Live Devices in this list.

There are two issues at play here:

1) Automation being moved audibly out of grid sync due to inserting latency inducing plugins. The return audio is compensated by Live's PDC. (2 and 3 above)
2) Automation and return audio being audibly out of grid sync due to inserting timing dependent plugins in series after latency inducing plugins. The return audio is not compensated by Live's PDC. (1 above)

The following is a clear and succinct explanation from Ableton from Jan '11.

viewtopic.php?p=1247289#p1247289

Hope that clarifies things, some.

*Edited the first and last entry for accuracy. Timing dependent effects only lose polling of the transport timing when inserted after plugins which induce latency.
Following upon this, I wanted to just add a personal thought, as to why this is so important.

Because this issue only happens when using very specific types of processing in a certain order, the micro-management to avoid the issue is overly complicated. If the issue itself were less complicated, we'd be able to work around it and manage it ourselves in a more reasonable manner. Once things like automation nodes get visibly off the grid, it becomes very difficult to keep track of large projects in one's mind, or on paper, of what needs to be manually compensated for, and where.

Finding the latency for every plugin in a project is not a casual process. It is possible to create a database of every plugin's latency, and which plugins poll the timing transport, and what they will do when combined together in series. Then we could take that information and delay tracks forward, or manually scoot them, to line up with any delays in audio from other tracks. However, there is still the problem that moving an entire track of automation in Live is not handled in the same manner as it is with moving audio, and often has to be done on a per node level.

The point is that managing all of this requires a complicated process with a considerable amount of time and effort. And when other applications are able to make this a complete non-issue, or at least bring the complexity down to a more manageable level, then that has a noticeable effect on the project. Time and resources go into other areas of the production, and it's not something one worries about it. Having trust in one's tools is a big deal, and can influence confidence and trust in other areas of the process, such as the composition and performance. For some artists, creation can be a delicate process.

That is why I feel that this is important, and is why I would like to see this addressed in a future version of Live.

soultwist
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by soultwist » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:27 pm

Why the hostility? Ableton as a company does not owe any of us anything. They provide a product and charge a fee for it. Don't like it? Move on.

Starting a campaign? Are you effing kidding me?

justchris86
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by justchris86 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:43 pm

soultwist wrote:Why the hostility? Ableton as a company does not owe any of us anything. They provide a product and charge a fee for it. Don't like it? Move on.

Starting a campaign? Are you effing kidding me?
+1!
"Do not quote or read this text"

https://soundcloud.com/modernmaestros

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:07 pm

i really hate the after taste of Diet Coke. i will start a campaign to fix my taste... errr... their product, yes...

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:58 pm

H20nly wrote:i really hate the after taste of Diet Coke. i will start a campaign to fix my taste... errr... their product, yes...
um, this kinda actually happened. Coke 2. another warped retort.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:01 pm

soultwist wrote:Why the hostility? Ableton as a company does not owe any of us anything. They provide a product and charge a fee for it. Don't like it? Move on.

Starting a campaign? Are you effing kidding me?
Deal with it. Why the hostility?? are you effing kidding me?

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