LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:40 am

be nice.

there's something you're overlooking. when that decision was made computers weren't nearly as powerful as they are today. I'd switch to 192kHz to record with low latency and then go back to 48kHz to do the rest.

today I get very playable low latency at 48kHz. maybe they can revisit that decision and add the feature. they did 64 bit summing just because the other DAWs had it, it was a very minor performance gain but they did it.

dunno about Ableton Pro. keep one codebase, it's MUCH easier to maintain. you'd also be left with 'Ableton Amateur' and every audio company wants to be known as Pro only.
In my life
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At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:42 am

pencilrocket wrote:This issue somehow affects the reason why deadmau5 is trying to move his studio system to Cubase?
a nice side effect of this discussion. now people who don't know any better are going to blame PDC for everything under the sun.

the new crappy looking web site? they had to do it because of PDC.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

crumhorn
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by crumhorn » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:43 am

Should I ? shouldn't I ?


Oh Bugger it - publish and be damned.

http://www.sharehost.co.uk/Live/pdc.jpg

No promise that it will be implemented in 9 - but they do take it seriously.

I'll willingly remove the above image from my webspace or edit this post in any way if Ableton ask me to.
Last edited by crumhorn on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

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Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:45 am

nice, but you should probably take it down. they're being more button down than usual about the Live 9 release.

I'll change my post if you do.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

crumhorn
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by crumhorn » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:02 am

You can see why Ableton might be cagey about announcing anything that is not certain after the Share debacle.

But personally I think that announcing Live 9 without this is a mistake. Maybe too much effort went into Push, I don't know, but they seem to have lost their direction somewhat.
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

hec
Posts: 52
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hec » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:06 am

crumhorn wrote:You can see why Ableton might be cagey about announcing anything that is not certain after the Share debacle.

But personally I think that announcing Live 9 without this is a mistake. Maybe too much effort went into Push, I don't know, but they seem to have lost their direction somewhat.
From the looks of BitWig, it looks like they lost their talent!

What do you do when that happens? Do it like Avid, sell hardware.

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:12 am

Some here try to say that Ableton did release the PDC as is from the beginning,
because of slower computer at the time it was build and sold.
Kind of a compromise...

But other DAW's like Cubase have fully working PDC since 2003, when PC was slower then 2009.
By the way, Cubase uses half CPU then Live with full working PDC and had no reason
make their PDC not working fully Like Ableton did with Live 8 and now 9.

This argument is stupid, when you know that todays computers are faster,
but still Ableton releases Live 9 with the same "CPU-saving-not-fully-working-PDC" !
That is total nonsense... :lol:

They didn't write anything about that in the manual then.
Didn't mention anything about the way PDC was not working and that for over a year.
They later admitted it after people complained about PDC. One whole year later...
Then they fixed the manual and added a note in the later releases after all...

Is that sounding right to anyone ?

Makes no sense to me...!!!

It's clear that they simply made a mistake, and covered it afterward in the manual.
This isn't right, if you don't plan to fix it !

Now they release Live 9 and still the same problem.
On top of that, no word of fixing PDC in Live 8 as people
who payed for a working version deserve to get.
Last edited by simpli.cissimus on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:24 am, edited 7 times in total.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:14 am

crumhorn wrote:Maybe too much effort went into Push, I don't know, but they seem to have lost their direction somewhat.
it takes a while to develop hardware. first you get the hardware rolling, you can do some coding while you're waiting for boards. you get rev 1 to work, send out for rev 2, then do the software for it. it's also a software company doing hardware, they have some hardware knowledge but it's not easy.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:19 am

crumhorn wrote:You can see why Ableton might be cagey about announcing anything that is not certain after the Share debacle.

But personally I think that announcing Live 9 without this is a mistake. Maybe too much effort went into Push, I don't know, but they seem to have lost their direction somewhat.

What about people who bought Live when it was released early and expected to get a full working PDC ?
Don't they deserve to get it fixed for free ???
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

hec
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:40 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hec » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:29 am

simpli.cissimus wrote:Some here try to say that Ableton did release the PDC as is from the beginning,
because of slower computer at the time it was build and sold.
Kind of a compromise...

But other DAW's like Cubase have fully working since 2003, when PC was slower then 2009.
By the way, Cubase uses half CPU then Live with full working PDC and had no reason
make their PDC not working fully Like Ableton did with Live 8 and now 9.

This argument is stupid, when you know that todays computers are faster,
but still Ableton releases Live 9 with the same "CPU-saving-not-fully-working-PDC" !
That is total nonsense... :lol:

They didn't write anything about that in the manual then.
Didn't mention anything about the way PDC was not working and that for over a year.
They later admitted it after people complained about PDC. One whole year later...
Then they fixed the manual and added a note in the later releases after all...

Is that sounding right to anyone ?

Makes no sense to me...!!!

It's clear that they simply made a mistake, and covered it afterward in the manual.
This isn't right, if you don't plan to fix it !

Now they release Live 9 and still the same problem.
On top of that, no word of fixing PDC in Live 8 as people
who payed for a working version deserve to get.
Cubase isn't for live performance. The problem with Ableton right now is that A LOT of people are using it for production, many exclusively for production. However, Ableton LIVE is at its core the DAW for performance, that's their niche.

People are asking for features comparable to mixing, editing DAWs like Pro Tools and Cubase or production DAWS like Logic. Ableton is the LIVE DAW that happens to be good for production. The more people keep using it for production the more its weaknesses will be exposed but a lot of people are going to be let down for a long time if they keep expecting Live to be something else. For the record, I want these features as much as the next man but none of this will change any time soon.

PDC WILL NOT BE A PART OF LIVE 9.

There is simply not enough time for that.

dolomick
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:16 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by dolomick » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:32 am

I'm seriously interested in how so many EDM artists use Ableton for production, a product which has major timing problems, with any success? I am honestly curious about their workarounds... does anyone have any interviews with major artists talking about this problem? The appeal of Ableton was being able to produce a track and then take it out live, after all. After reading all this, I'm afraid there are so many situations that could cause problems producing, that Ableton may not be for me :|

It's a shame because I was excited about Push, due to it's seemingly tight integration with Live. That one post that may need to be removed is exciting though, I will keep my fingers crossed. I wholeheartedly agree that Ableton should be more open about what the status of this is, if they expect a new customer to come up with $1100 for Live Suite and Push.
Last edited by dolomick on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:35 am

hec wrote:
simpli.cissimus wrote:Some here try to say that Ableton did release the PDC as is from the beginning,
because of slower computer at the time it was build and sold.
Kind of a compromise...

But other DAW's like Cubase have fully working since 2003, when PC was slower then 2009.
By the way, Cubase uses half CPU then Live with full working PDC and had no reason
make their PDC not working fully Like Ableton did with Live 8 and now 9.

This argument is stupid, when you know that todays computers are faster,
but still Ableton releases Live 9 with the same "CPU-saving-not-fully-working-PDC" !
That is total nonsense... :lol:

They didn't write anything about that in the manual then.
Didn't mention anything about the way PDC was not working and that for over a year.
They later admitted it after people complained about PDC. One whole year later...
Then they fixed the manual and added a note in the later releases after all...

Is that sounding right to anyone ?

Makes no sense to me...!!!

It's clear that they simply made a mistake, and covered it afterward in the manual.
This isn't right, if you don't plan to fix it !

Now they release Live 9 and still the same problem.
On top of that, no word of fixing PDC in Live 8 as people
who payed for a working version deserve to get.
Cubase isn't for live performance. The problem with Ableton right now is that A LOT of people are using it for production, many exclusively for production. However, Ableton LIVE is at its core the DAW for performance, that's their niche.

People are asking for features comparable to mixing, editing DAWs like Pro Tools and Cubase or production DAWS like Logic. Ableton is the LIVE DAW that happens to be good for production. The more people keep using it for production the more its weaknesses will be exposed but a lot of people are going to be let down for a long time if they keep expecting Live to be something else. For the record, I want these features as much as the next man but none of this will change any time soon.

PDC WILL NOT BE A PART OF LIVE 9.

There is simply not enough time for that.

I would have kinds of things to say about this, but it's been said. I will say this, your tone is all wrong because regardless of whether it's a Live DAW or not, this feature was brought up a VERY long time ago and Ableton have supposedly been working on it for a VERY long time, I personally was under the impression this was coming in Live 9, you're clearly talking about expectations as if they were completely unfounded... I kept hanging on because this was a natural expectation, a expectation that was shared by A LOT of people, not just the dreamers...

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:39 am

dolomick wrote:I'm seriously interested in how so many EDM artists use Ableton for production, a product which has major timing problems, with any success? I am honestly curious about their workarounds... does anyone have any interviews with major artists talking about this problem? The appeal of Ableton was being able to produce a track and then take it out live, after all. After reading all this, I'm afraid there are so many situations that could cause problems producing, that Ableton may not be for me :|

It's a shame because I was excited about Push, due to it's seemingly tight integration with Live. That one post that may need to be removed is exciting though, I will keep my fingers crossed. I wholeheartedly agree that Ableton should be more open about what the status of this is, if they expect a new customer to come up with $1100 for Live Suite and Push.
The most Pro's bounce tracks and use another DAW like Logic, Protools and so on to finish their tracks...!
Many of them use the quick workflow to start tracks, but finish in other DAW.

If you plan to work seriously, then invest more money and buy a good DAW beside Push and Live to finish your tracks.

ahhh..., and don't use to much effects in Live as you know why...!
Add them in the other DAW !!!
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:43 am

dolomick wrote:I'm seriously interested in how so many EDM artists use Ableton for production, a product which has major timing problems, with any success? I am honestly curious about their workarounds... does anyone have any interviews with major artists talking about this problem? After reading all this, I'm afraid there are so many situations that could cause problems that Ableton may not be for me :| It's a shame because I was excited about Push, due to it's seemingly tight integration with Live. That one post that may need to be removed is exciting though, fingers crossed.
I know what you mean, I've thought about this, all of this major EDM artists have a bounce and print workflow, I don't personally think most of them are doing it in reaction to the PDC issues, I think it's just how they worked to begin with and it's been successful like that, it works, I mean I make a lot of would be EDM and it's all about printing, I record and remix, and you can do that with Live all day, but it sounds like printed/bounced music, most popular EDM these days I personally feel bouncing is a big part of the production technique, because it's all about re-sampling and precision, plus perfect sonic repetition and you get that with printing.... as per usual popular music has adapted to the technology, I genuinely believe that is what has happened, but you know, EDM is already very samey.

dolomick
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:16 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by dolomick » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:50 am

simpli.cissimus wrote:
dolomick wrote:I'm seriously interested in how so many EDM artists use Ableton for production, a product which has major timing problems, with any success? I am honestly curious about their workarounds... does anyone have any interviews with major artists talking about this problem? The appeal of Ableton was being able to produce a track and then take it out live, after all. After reading all this, I'm afraid there are so many situations that could cause problems producing, that Ableton may not be for me :|

It's a shame because I was excited about Push, due to it's seemingly tight integration with Live. That one post that may need to be removed is exciting though, I will keep my fingers crossed. I wholeheartedly agree that Ableton should be more open about what the status of this is, if they expect a new customer to come up with $1100 for Live Suite and Push.
The most Pro's bounce tracks and use another DAW like Logic, Protools and so on to finish their tracks...!
Many of them use the quick workflow to start tracks, but finish in other DAW.

If you plan to work seriously, then invest more money and buy a good DAW beside Push and Live to finish your tracks.
What a hassle. Since pretty much all DAWS do timestretching nowadays and that is Ableton's claim to fame, I might have to agree with this. I don't like having to bounce around DAW's as it kills the creative flow, requires maintaining multiple project files, etc.

As for sdfak1234's bounce and print workflow, I'm fine with that... BUT... once the audio is bounced, and you want to add a few fx to the newly bounced audio and reprint again... isn't this issue continually cropping up? I suppose what you must do is then manually align the newly printed audio as soon it is rendered? I think I am beginning to see how to work around this timing issue if I were so-inclined, thanks! Not saying I AM so-inclined, however. But I'll consider it.

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