LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:18 am

dolomick wrote: What a hassle. Since pretty much all DAWS do timestretching nowadays and that is Ableton's claim to fame, I might have to agree with this. I don't like having to bounce around DAW's as it kills the creative flow, requires maintaining multiple project files, etc.

As for sdfak1234's bounce and print workflow, I'm fine with that... BUT... once the audio is bounced, and you want to add a few fx to the newly bounced audio and reprint again... isn't this issue continually cropping up? I suppose what you must do is then manually align the newly printed audio as soon it is rendered? I think I am beginning to see how to work around this timing issue if I were so-inclined, thanks! Not saying I AM so-inclined, however. But I'll consider it.

only if you had automation on the lane, then a new fx would throw it off, you'd have to bounce first then add the fx then automate that, then bounce again... very very constraining, but straight audio effects will compensate fine, one way around the automation issue is to not use automation, I actually do avoid it nowadays, I'll use alternatives, maybe max4live effects will be useful for automating because they should be compensated, but they never seem that precise to me, also I use a lot of internal envelopes, love the multis in massive, omnisphere, harmor, etc but otherwise everything kinda relies on capturing 'live' moments and editing them, I like that part of live actually, but I can do that in cubase quite easily now, it used to be a bitch, and the bounce/print editing I can do in cubase is faster and better quality actually, easier fades, nice timestretch, built in variaudio...

So yeah people work around these issues as best they can, my rule these days is that if I'm automating, I'm recording everything as sound and editing.... it's annoying using freeze too because that also compensates.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:18 am

hec wrote:From the looks of BitWig,
that's all you get, looks.

BitWig Studio - Pro .jpegs for the serious[ly pissed off] musician.

mr.ergonomics
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:12 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by mr.ergonomics » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:18 am

.. and what makes the people really angry out there it that there isn't any communication on that topic from ableton... (don't take the steinberg business way of just being silence please)

ps: I used to like steinberg very much, but some really stupid things in the past still make we avoiding them when ever I can (remember the blurred font issue in the last cubase 5 (pc) update and how arrogant and dumb they handled the whole thing in the forum, even banning a posted workaround from a user?).

dolomick
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:16 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by dolomick » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:19 pm

sdfak1234 wrote:
dolomick wrote:
As for sdfak1234's bounce and print workflow, I'm fine with that... BUT... once the audio is bounced, and you want to add a few fx to the newly bounced audio and reprint again... isn't this issue continually cropping up? I suppose what you must do is then manually align the newly printed audio as soon it is rendered? I think I am beginning to see how to work around this timing issue if I were so-inclined, thanks! Not saying I AM so-inclined, however. But I'll consider it.

only if you had automation on the lane, then a new fx would throw it off, you'd have to bounce first then add the fx then automate that, then bounce again... very very constraining, but straight audio effects will compensate fine, one way around the automation issue is to not use automation, I actually do avoid it nowadays, I'll use alternatives, maybe max4live effects will be useful for automating because they should be compensated, but they never seem that precise to me, also I use a lot of internal envelopes, love the multis in massive, omnisphere, harmor, etc but otherwise everything kinda relies on capturing 'live' moments and editing them, I like that part of live actually, but I can do that in cubase quite easily now, it used to be a bitch, and the bounce/print editing I can do in cubase is faster and better quality actually, easier fades, nice timestretch, built in variaudio...

So yeah people work around these issues as best they can, my rule these days is that if I'm automating, I'm recording everything as sound and editing.... it's annoying using freeze too because that also compensates.

Sorry to be dense but what exactly are you referring to by "straight audio effects"? This quite helpful info, btw.

MrFingerDrums
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by MrFingerDrums » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:48 pm

I used to use Ableton Live just like you and then I took an arrow in the knee

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:50 pm

dolomick wrote:
sdfak1234 wrote:
dolomick wrote:
As for sdfak1234's bounce and print workflow, I'm fine with that... BUT... once the audio is bounced, and you want to add a few fx to the newly bounced audio and reprint again... isn't this issue continually cropping up? I suppose what you must do is then manually align the newly printed audio as soon it is rendered? I think I am beginning to see how to work around this timing issue if I were so-inclined, thanks! Not saying I AM so-inclined, however. But I'll consider it.

only if you had automation on the lane, then a new fx would throw it off, you'd have to bounce first then add the fx then automate that, then bounce again... very very constraining, but straight audio effects will compensate fine, one way around the automation issue is to not use automation, I actually do avoid it nowadays, I'll use alternatives, maybe max4live effects will be useful for automating because they should be compensated, but they never seem that precise to me, also I use a lot of internal envelopes, love the multis in massive, omnisphere, harmor, etc but otherwise everything kinda relies on capturing 'live' moments and editing them, I like that part of live actually, but I can do that in cubase quite easily now, it used to be a bitch, and the bounce/print editing I can do in cubase is faster and better quality actually, easier fades, nice timestretch, built in variaudio...

So yeah people work around these issues as best they can, my rule these days is that if I'm automating, I'm recording everything as sound and editing.... it's annoying using freeze too because that also compensates.

Sorry to be dense but what exactly are you referring to by "straight audio effects"? This quite helpful info, btw.
meaning any audio effect or instrument that has no automation on it.

MrFingerDrums
Posts: 17
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by MrFingerDrums » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:56 pm

Joke aside I just dont trust Ableton as a program and when you dont trust your tools it is very hard to carry confidence into your work......

it needs ableton to come out and say

"hey guys this program is not the best for full on heavy studio production we were mistaken and should not have marketed Live 8 in this way"

MrFingerDrums
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by MrFingerDrums » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:59 pm

Image

MrFingerDrums
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Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by MrFingerDrums » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:02 pm

Image

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:25 pm

MrFingerDrums wrote:Joke aside I just dont trust Ableton as a program and when you dont trust your tools it is very hard to carry confidence into your work......

it needs ableton to come out and say

"hey guys this program is not the best for full on heavy studio production we were mistaken and should not have marketed Live 8 in this way"
That wouldn't be good enough for me. I see this as a broken feature, and I feel making a delineation between studio and live work is a mistake, it is both, and there is nothing wrong with that concept...as you said, you can't trust the tools you're using regardless of whether they are live or studio. Basically I think it is really foolish to think of this as some kind of live compromise. I see no evidence for this at all, it's just work that hasn't been done, plain and simple. I think people are looking too hard for meaning and explanation, which is understandable, considering how baffling it is.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:42 pm

Today we bought our Cubase licenses for the studios, so that's the Live budget spent, big investment but I'm happy we've made this decision, sad to cut our losses, but what can we do.. I just want to make it clear this was due to Ableton's lack of diligence across the board, poor communication, and for tempting us with features they weren't able to deliver after many years of waiting. No more money to Ableton. I've put these recommendations to my clients also. The basic ruling is that Live has shit automation and they've carried that over into session view automation, which is the number 1 feature of this latest release, they focused on a bunch of stuff nobody asked for... it's unacceptable.

The only really sound workaround for this issue is not to use automation. Whether it's studio based arrangement automation, or live automation unless you've got preset instruments and effect rack with no alterations.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:52 pm

MrFingerDrums wrote:Joke aside I just dont trust Ableton as a program and when you dont trust your tools it is very hard to carry confidence into your work......
This is a good point, imagine what other secret engine shortcuts Ableton makes without discussing, I wouldn't be surprised if we all come to find out for example, that Ableton's audio quality really was comprised somehow and who knows maybe even audio PDC isn't rock solid... but yeah whatever, if it's screwing with your tracks timing, you can't trust it for anything.

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:20 pm

MrFingerDrums wrote:Joke aside I just dont trust Ableton as a program and when you dont trust your tools it is very hard to carry confidence into your work......

it needs ableton to come out and say

"hey guys this program is not the best for full on heavy studio production we were mistaken and should not have marketed Live 8 in this way"
See..., that's childish now and as much as I'm hitting on that PDC-shidd,
I wouldn't ask a company to kill itself with such nonsense...

I like Live a lot and had used it solely, until it was unworkable for me and I had to switch to another DAW.

Now I just use Live as my sound-creation-tool and that's it...!
Very sad if you ask me, because it had the potential to be more then a tool.

I would rather see Ableton not commenting anything,
but instead fix it for Live 8+9, and that's it!

People should get for what they paid and bought Live 8...
No workaround and other advices.

Make it work, ...all I'm asking... :!: :!: :!:
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

simmerdown
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simmerdown » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:26 pm

yeh, there has been some very good marketing advice in this thread

"We are not the best!'

"We do not listen to what you have to say!"

surefire winners

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:15 pm

Here is a nice thread about PDC on KVR: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=356594

I add here a little part of this thread !

Try this if you like:

1. Create two audio tracks.
2. Place the same sample on both.
3. On one track insert any of Live's effects that rely on internal timing eg. Beat Repeat or an effect with an LFO such as Autopan and Autofilter (make sure the LFO is on).
5. Now copy this effect to the other track.
6. Insert Live's utility on one track and reverse the phase.

The tracks will phase cancel resulting in silence. This is expected of course.

7. Now, on one track insert any third party plugin of your choice in front of Live's effect. Make sure you turn the plugin off so it's not affecting the signal. Your signal flow should look like this:
Track 1: Beat Repeat
Track 2: 3rd party plug -> Beat Repeat -> Utility

If Device Delay Compensation works the tracks should still phase cancel right? Wrong. In fact the more third party plugins you insert in front of Live's effects the worst the timing gets. Try duplicating the plugin (or adding other plugins) and you'll see what I mean:
Track 1: Beat Repeat
Track 2: 3rd party plug -> 3rd party plug -> 3rd party plug -> Beat Repeat -> Utility


The problem isn't specific to Live's effects either. It's just easy to use them to demonstrate the problem. If you're using any effects that have gates or LFO's, and they're not first in the signal chain then they're not going to be in time. Add this to the fact that your automation isn't delay compensated and the result is a f**king train wreck.

I reported this bug 13 months ago (Ableton confirmed it) but I thought it was a problem specific to 3rd party gating plugins only (in my case CamelSpace). Now it appears that there's actually a major flaw.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

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