LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
hmj
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:00 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hmj » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:19 am

OzWozEre wrote:Image
Thank you.

hmj
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:00 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hmj » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:39 pm

Dada Life says the same thing many of us have been repeating over and over and the forum hater trolls go silent. This place is a joke.

H20nly
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Location: The Wild West

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:06 pm

^ aren't you the forum hater troll?

what new information has been provided here on page 45?
what about on 44?
43?
42?
41?
40?
...???
...???


this thread ceased to have any new and/or useful information in it over 20 pages ago. do you want a pat on the back for keeping the complaint going the longest?

you've pointed out that someone who makes music with Live has a PDC issue.
*golf clap*

name dropping doesn't add any value.

Cool Character
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 3:48 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Cool Character » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:23 am

H20nly wrote:^ aren't you the forum hater troll?

what new information has been provided here on page 45?
what about on 44?
43?
42?
41?
40?
...???
...???


this thread ceased to have any new and/or useful information in it over 20 pages ago. do you want a pat on the back for keeping the complaint going the longest?

you've pointed out that someone who makes music with Live has a PDC issue.
*golf clap*

name dropping doesn't add any value.
+0

The more visible the threads on PDC, the more people will know / remember the problem, the more pressure Ableton has to fix it.

It adds value because it raises the profile of the attention. Get a higher profile artist to mention it, and there'd be an even bigger fire under Ableton's ass.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:58 am

H2Only you're obviously a bright guy yet I'm continually confused by your arguments..I understand people see things differently but some of these things don't make sense, I'm sorry, but when you talk about the concept of tackling one beast at a time, I'm kinda blown away that you can't see that fixing automation on PDC should've been done before automation in session view, the reason why I'm disillusioned is because this seems backwards, it really makes no sense to me. Second you don't seem to understand the nature of complaints, complaints don't stop "going" unless the problem is resolved, they certainly don't go away if the recipient doesn't respond. The reason people posts complaints is probably because they want it fixed, I really doubt most people are here just to bitch, that doesn't really make sense either. Lastly threads frequently repeat themselves over time, especially long ones, people don't go back and read the whole thing, you know this.... Ableton has bowed to pressure before and they will do again... I can see you find people's persistence irritable, but it doesn't surprise me at all, I'd imagine this will continue until it's fixed.

BTW I'm loving Cubase 7, the performance is off the scale, even a big step up from Cubase 6.5, this new ASIO guard tech works well. The new mixconsole is far more modern, and actually have some of the feel that I've come to appreciate from Ableton, I didn't particularly like the old mixer, this is a vast improvement... automation is much easier to deal with, the workflow improvements are great, but I've got to say it also sounds great as well... I've already experienced much tighter sound from tighter automation, the precision is definitely much higher and I really dig the built in FX. Very nice update actually, surprised. I miss live jamming and the workflow is slower, but definitely more precise and deliberate, it's worth it because my sound memory is tighter/less jitter.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:58 am

ok. i see your point regarding the thread. i just don't think name dropping is going to cause Ableton to suddenly change everything they're doing and the order in which they're doing it. my point, at least on this page, is that there is an order of operations to things... i know i won't be the first in this thread to mention that...

if the program needs a rewrite to add feature A... in this case we could use 64 bit as an example that everyone can wrap their head around... completing that change would take precedence over adding feature B, such as PDC. regardless of what other DAWs do or do not have it's still a feature and that feature may not have the luxury of being added/updated/fixed until other elements are in sync. there are dependencies to contend with.

i wear many hats at work, but my main role (these days) is front end database design for doctors to use in their transition from paper to electronic. i see this type of thing all the time. a user wants something added... the problem being that this "feature", how ever good, relevant, and even over due of an idea this feature may be, it could mess with the harmony of the overall product. so in order to add it something else has to be modified. sometimes that's a relatively easy fix... sometimes... the added feature disrupts the background logic in such a way that it essentially destroys other aspects of the design/end product.

what i'm saying essentially is that you have to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can crawl etc.

now, i realize that someone will chime in about this time in reading my response to you and say something like "they've had since version X" or "they've had years to..." but this argument is ignorant to reality. if PDC was something easily repaired, added, adjusted or whatever the word is that describes what must be done, then surely they would have done this by now.

patience is a virtue and there is not exactly a shortage of alternatives as it pertains to DAWs

regarding Cubase, i read another poster's review of 7 and was floored. he made it sound horrid. i've yet to upgrade because truly, the thing i was trying to accomplish was the ability to open old SX 3 tracks on my new Mac. it's interesting to read your thoughts on it... especially as it pertains to PDC and the notion of you throwing your hands up with Live. so thanks for the feed back. you've got me itchy to try it now... it will have to take a back seat though. i downloaded the Live 9 beta today on my lunch break and i'm itching even more to see some of the changes there first and foremost.

peace to you sdfak1234. i'll back off on this PDC thing. i had every intention of doing so earlier, but some of the fits in the form of posts are laughable at best and i guess i have a tendency to say/type what i'm thinking. i certainly don't think that there is anything left to be said about PDC that hasn't been said. my innermost thoughts on this tell me that Ableton have not only seen the things being said, but are taking it under consideration, which brings me back to order of operations. it'll happen, but it will be on their schedule, not ours.


bump

hmj
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:00 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hmj » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:46 pm

H20nly wrote:^ aren't you the forum hater troll?

what new information has been provided here on page 45?
what about on 44?
43?
42?
41?
40?
...???
...???


this thread ceased to have any new and/or useful information in it over 20 pages ago. do you want a pat on the back for keeping the complaint going the longest?

you've pointed out that someone who makes music with Live has a PDC issue.
*golf clap*

name dropping doesn't add any value.
Your ability to respond with such troll accuracy is fascinating.

This isn't name dropping playboy, this is an acknowledgment to the severity of the problem. These are professionals speaking out about unacceptable weaknesses in the program.
Ableton is getting away with the crime of the century selling people a music production product that doesn't keep time. Do you understand the severity of that, Ableton doesn't keep time! We're talking about music here and it doesn't keep time.

Go read the Deadmau5 article on why he's using Cubase instead of Live. These are people at the top of their game, masters of their craft talking about a severe problem.

Save your trolling for the birds. PDC is real, it's urgent, it needs to be bumped every single day until it's resolved. If you can't understand than you just don't get it which is totally fine. Just stay out of the conversation. We're here to get PDC fixed, anything else is irrelevant.
Last edited by hmj on Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

OzWozEre
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by OzWozEre » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:24 pm

hmj wrote:Thank you.
No, Thank you!
Macbook Pro (2.5 Dual, 4gb) / 30" Cinema Display (I don't give a fuck about no multi-monitor support)

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:46 pm

hmj wrote: name dropping playboy

bump
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

Cool Character
Posts: 340
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Cool Character » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:52 pm

hmj wrote:Just stay out of the conversation. We're here to get PDC fixed, anything else is irrelevant.
This is why fanboys can't stop the thread from growing to 100+ pages.

donmich
Posts: 189
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by donmich » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:58 pm

I'm really sorry to do this but I cant go through this whole thread.
Might someone summarize the extent of the problem and when it occurs?

For example, if you are using a plugin with its own arp or sequencer, like Geist or Synthsquad?

If you simply want to use an external synth like a virus in real time with the rest of the tracks done with a combinationof Live instruments and plugins like Kontakt?

In other words who has this problem and what is the most common set up that results in it.

If noone wants to answer I get that. But Id appreciate it.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:33 am

^ there is a lot of actual testing and relevant examples somewhere around the 15-20 page mark... if you start there and glean through the smack talking and posturing you'll find some really objective posts.

look for posts from theophilus specifically.

hope this helps...





bump

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:23 am

Obviously I've been part of the whole personal attack business on this thread, didn't really mean for it to go like that and I corrected wherever possible, but yeah, it really does need to come to an end... I can see H20nly points and I'm starting to understand his personality better... I don't really interact on forums to be honest, I've only ever been on a couple for brief periods of time, so I don't get half of the stuff that has been established between people on forums...but yes, I think we need to stop being personal on this thread and just focus on the issues, I think arguments are good, no need to get personal, but the issue with this topic is that music is pretty personal and we spend so much time with this software that it feels personal. I think if you simply don't make assumptions about the person you are talking to, things will get a lot easier... I don't like it when that happens because then the discourse is destabilized and you're no longer having a sensible debate. Plus you can't really make any point at all if people second guess you on a message forum.

The thing about this debate is of course, that's there isn't really much of a debate...

I'm starting to feel aligned with H20nly in that the repetition is becoming annoying, but I do understand it and it'll happen, actually saying that, I do think things have become more coherent as the thread has progressed, so who knows.

I think for points of discussion, people should be talking about specific examples, test cases, philosophical angles, science angles, ideas for solutions, etc. no need for arguing between each other at this stage, maybe before.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:34 am

by the way, I read this article about MIDI jitter and it really resonated me with regards this topic... and reinforced some ideas I've had in the past...read the article first maybe:

http://www.eigenzone.org/2012/12/04/midi-jitter


Basically the main thing that stood out to me was that humans are very good at handling latency, because it's inherent in audio and we naturally compensate for it... but we don't handle it very well when the timing changes, it spoils expectations and it seems our brains are very sensitive to it, I feel that consistent timing/latency is a fundamental component in the human musical/machine interaction because we need to learn it in order to interact with it. If it changes it throws us off, and I think it's a huge problem in computer music, I think it's the reason why a lot of computer musicians can have so much musical ability but lack that 'live' component of it, the machines have odd time, just the asio buffer settings change how it's perceived in the brain, the interaction of PDC and transport and the screen and your eyes, is also inconsistent... even midi controllers playing different sounds, the brain is going to learn a real instrument better because it has consistent latency and consistent hardware and consistent sound... I've mentioned before but I think this is often the reason for very successful hardware devices, some I've used I've just been so tight, you feel more connected to them, I'm thinking of the MPC and the CDJ1000 which has a super tight sound... this is a fundamental thing, Ableton should look into ways of locking down drifting times and inconsistencies wherever possible...

Akshara
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Akshara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:36 am

Tone Deft wrote:*SERIOUS PROPS TO petite nuage and theopilus (sp?) who have posted GREAT information and have been totally cool. I respect them for their work and focus on the topic.
H20nly wrote:look for posts from theophilus specifically.
With respect to theophilus for trying, those tests don't uncover any new information that we didn't already know years ago, and weren't that helpful in a practical sense, except to begin an unfinished list of plugins with no latency, mostly freeware; and actually confuse the situation by completely ignoring what is arguably the most important aspect of the problem - internal loss of sync with Live's timing clock inside of tempo based effects.

To see what genuinely helpful research looks like, look to fx23's thread from three years ago.

viewtopic.php?p=1263901#p1263901
Tone Deft wrote:I don't rely on Live to make a living, it's just a hobby for me, but I can understand your frustration. best of luck!
H20nly wrote:i wear many hats at work, but my main role (these days) is front end database design for doctors to use in their transition from paper to electronic.
Well as someone who for twenty five years has made their living within music and audio production, with no B plan; and who has spent far more hours within Live than the number of your combined post counts on this forum, I get tired of reading your supposed expert opinions on a subject which neither of you have practically any meaningful experience with.

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