LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Akshara
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Akshara » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:00 am

sdfak1234 wrote:I think for points of discussion, people should be talking about specific examples, test cases, philosophical angles, science angles, ideas for solutions, etc. no need for arguing between each other at this stage, maybe before.
Kind of feels too late for that, unfortunately. What would be the point? To receive more grief from forum power users and run tests which fall upon deaf ears?

You don't need to apologize. As William Gibson repeatedly disavows having said, "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:08 am

Akshara wrote:
sdfak1234 wrote:I think for points of discussion, people should be talking about specific examples, test cases, philosophical angles, science angles, ideas for solutions, etc. no need for arguing between each other at this stage, maybe before.
Kind of feels too late for that, unfortunately. What would be the point? To receive more grief from forum power users and run tests which fall upon deaf ears?

You don't need to apologize. As William Gibson repeatedly disavows having said, "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."
I understand, yeah, wasn't trying to make too much of an apology, more apologizing to myself for getting angry... I do agree with you that there is an issue with some of the attitudes here, obviously I've written a lot directly about this... I would just like the thread or another thread or whatever to get back to the issue at hand, it is kind of too late, and actually I agree that with your other point that this discussion has been corrupted by false information, it's lead a lot of users to disregard the issue, others have misunderstood it completely, but mostly I don't think the scope is understood... anyway, I got to get back to work, but yeah, people read these threads it raises consciousness, I don't think they're completely deaf. I'd like to think I got through to some people on some points even if they didn't admit it.

There are different levels of seriousness among people and that's causing a lot of friction, I think it should give way to the majority, and it appears to be a problem for the majority of people on this thread at least.

fx23
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by fx23 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:23 am

Akshara wrote: To see what genuinely helpful research looks like, look to fx23's thread from three years ago.

viewtopic.php?p=1263901#p1263901

hey thx for the words akshara, im glad it could be informative for some.
yes this is a REAL problem, and as you point it's YEARS some of us are waiting it to be fixed, not free biching..

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:00 am

Akshara wrote:
H20nly wrote:look for posts from theophilus specifically.
With respect to theophilus for trying, those tests don't uncover any new information that we didn't already know years ago, and weren't that helpful in a practical sense, except to begin an unfinished list of plugins with no latency, mostly freeware; and actually confuse the situation by completely ignoring what is arguably the most important aspect of the problem - internal loss of sync with Live's timing clock inside of tempo based effects.

To see what genuinely helpful research looks like, look to fx23's thread from three years ago.

viewtopic.php?p=1263901#p1263901
how nice of you to offer up helpful information to the poster.

that is what you were doing right? i mean, you wouldn't be knocking parts of this thread that were on topic and objective just to attempt to paint me as... well what ever it is you're trying to brush stroke...

unless of course it really was Tone Deft, myself or both of us you were trying to enlighten by posting that link as a reply to our personal thoughts. :idea:

my post was to help guide this poster to some meaningful subject matter (as he requested):
donmich wrote:I'm really sorry to do this but I cant go through this whole thread.
Might someone summarize the extent of the problem and when it occurs?
that's what you want right? attention brought to the PDC issue?? so, why not seize the opportunity and reply to the poster directly instead of giving the thread yet another post with a half baked summary that contains the noise he's is trying to avoid in the first place?

in the spirit of stating and restating:

if you have more meaningful subject matter to offer why not direct the poster asking about it toward that instead of going through the trouble of quoting Tone Deft and i in some offhand method of undermining anything remotely positive we say?

i have my theory... you've got some kind of issue with sunshine and rainbows eh? perhaps you prefer overcast and dreary? don't worry Mr. Glass is Half Empty... they're rhetorical questions. i'm not really looking for you to cherry pick my posts and answer anything.

got news for you... nothing will ever fix your software issues... when this one is fixed... you'll just find another campaign.



bump

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:44 am

H20nly wrote: got news for you... nothing will ever fix your software issues... when this one is fixed... you'll just find another campaign.
this is a key point.. H20nly, of course people will find another campaign, this is the nature of evolution, it's relentless and never ending. Absolutely when one issue is fixed it's time to move on to the next one, this is life right?

leisuremuffin
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:41 am

some people actually make music instead of finding reasons why they can't. apparently those people are called "fanboys" or idiots who don't understand the depth and scope of the problem.

people have made excellent music with more limitations and will continue to do so.


again, i am not trying to say that PDC shouldn't behave the way you want it to, i'm just saying that ableton not changing the behavior of PDC is not the end of the world. we've all been using it the way it is now since PDC was introduced to live and some of us are happy with the results we've achieved. fuck, some of us were able to use the program before it even had PDC.

i understand wanting ableton to improve the software. i don't understand the "i am the center of the universe" mentality that causes some individuals to decide that their personal request for improvement is the most important thing ever and run around insulting everyone else and making insane demands and proclamations.


.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

William
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by William » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:43 am

sdfak1234 wrote:
H20nly wrote: got news for you... nothing will ever fix your software issues... when this one is fixed... you'll just find another campaign.
this is a key point.. H20nly, of course people will find another campaign, this is the nature of evolution, it's relentless and never ending. Absolutely when one issue is fixed it's time to move on to the next one, this is life right?
TRUTH
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Live 9

Akshara
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Akshara » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 am

The tests in this thread, while well intentioned, diverted the discussion and missed the point. So from me, they got an E for effort. If they had furthered the discussion, or followed through, then I'd be applauding them and linking to them.

The reason I addressed them above was because they were being held up like a virtual bully club.

So I think I've hit my limit and am tapping out. Be well.

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:00 pm

thanks, fx23, that is a good thread.

it's true i haven't followed through and i apologize for that; i do intend to, but have been working 15 hour days for the last 3 weeks. that should end in a week or so and then maybe i can get back to this.

hoffman2k
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:04 pm

*Nerd Alert*

Has anybody tried to get their head around the maths of implementing "perfect" PDC and found an efficient way to find the latency of an individual plugin?

So there are instruments and effects with latency and all of them are synced to the main clock.
So for each device you add, sync and automation gets offset further.
The solution seems straightforward. Add compensation for that offset.
How much compensation? This is where the fun maths begin:

We can chain and layer instruments and effects. And we can route them with tracks, sends and groups.
So lets take a Rack with 3 chains, all with a combination of different instruments and effects.

Chain 1 = 3ms Delay
Chain 2 = 1ms Delay
Chain 3 = 7ms Delay

Followed by a heavy reverb and compressor = + 5ms Delay

So now the sound coming out the compressor is 8, 6 and/or 12 milliseconds late.
Any automation done now and synced effects placed after the compressor will be 8, 6 and/or 12ms early.
Automation could be corrected by offsetting the delay for each parameter based on the path of the device.
But does it take the offset of the slowest chain? Are the other chains adjusted based on the chain with the most delay?
Does compensation mean the audio starts 12ms later? When you record automation based on what you hear, is audio latency taken into consideration?
And then what about the offset of the synced effect? Is it offset by 6 or by 12 milliseconds?

These are relatively easy questions if we're just talking about 1 track. But its a whole different story is that track has a Drum Rack for example. When you start looking at an average project, the maths become madness.

Its funny to hear some people say that Ableton should have figured out PDC before they added automation recording.
Session recording is easy stuff compared to PDC. Its a way larger issue than just automation.
Recording and playing automation are on 2 different timelines when you add Plugin and Audio Interface latency.
There already is an offset in place for recorded Audio and Notes. Then PDC has to be applied to the envelopes without causing conflicts.
Sure, some companies already figured it out and by that logic, its a disgrace that Ableton didn't. Even though other companies did it in a linear environment. But instant scrubbing is like launching a scene I suppose. So boo on Ableton for not at least implementing it on the Arrangement side.

If and when Ableton comes up with a "perfect" PDC implementation that works for everybody, it'll just be a feature on a list. Met with cheers of "Finally!" and "About damn time!".
While for Ableton, it'll probably be a huge celebration after years of planning, experimenting and implementing. Who knows how far along they are... Its not done, that is all we know.

We're long past posting test results on the forum. Most of the actual info around this issue comes from Ableton's Nico Starke. It has been technically explained. Any test posted shows only 1 scenario. If we all used Live in the same way, this thread would be just 20 pages of +1's.

Image

fishmonkey
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:24 pm

stop trying to be so goddammned logical! this is all about passion and TRUTH!

theophilus
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:54 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:37 pm

it's not as bad as all that. i'd implement it as a digraph but that's probably just because i've been using them a lot lately :) and it only has to be recalculated when you modify the configuration somehow... as long as you're not doing something crazy like automate the compressor lookahead time back and forth, should be doable...

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:59 pm

@hoffman2k :+ 1

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:31 pm

hoffman2k wrote:*Nerd Alert*

Has anybody tried to get their head around the maths of implementing "perfect" PDC and found an efficient way to find the latency of an individual plugin?

So there are instruments and effects with latency and all of them are synced to the main clock.
So for each device you add, sync and automation gets offset further.
The solution seems straightforward. Add compensation for that offset.
How much compensation? This is where the fun maths begin:

We can chain and layer instruments and effects. And we can route them with tracks, sends and groups.
So lets take a Rack with 3 chains, all with a combination of different instruments and effects.

Chain 1 = 3ms Delay
Chain 2 = 1ms Delay
Chain 3 = 7ms Delay

Followed by a heavy reverb and compressor = + 5ms Delay

So now the sound coming out the compressor is 8, 6 and/or 12 milliseconds late.
Any automation done now and synced effects placed after the compressor will be 8, 6 and/or 12ms early.
Automation could be corrected by offsetting the delay for each parameter based on the path of the device.
But does it take the offset of the slowest chain? Are the other chains adjusted based on the chain with the most delay?
Does compensation mean the audio starts 12ms later? When you record automation based on what you hear, is audio latency taken into consideration?
And then what about the offset of the synced effect? Is it offset by 6 or by 12 milliseconds?

These are relatively easy questions if we're just talking about 1 track. But its a whole different story is that track has a Drum Rack for example. When you start looking at an average project, the maths become madness.

Its funny to hear some people say that Ableton should have figured out PDC before they added automation recording.
Session recording is easy stuff compared to PDC. Its a way larger issue than just automation.
Recording and playing automation are on 2 different timelines when you add Plugin and Audio Interface latency.
There already is an offset in place for recorded Audio and Notes. Then PDC has to be applied to the envelopes without causing conflicts.
Sure, some companies already figured it out and by that logic, its a disgrace that Ableton didn't. Even though other companies did it in a linear environment. But instant scrubbing is like launching a scene I suppose. So boo on Ableton for not at least implementing it on the Arrangement side.

If and when Ableton comes up with a "perfect" PDC implementation that works for everybody, it'll just be a feature on a list. Met with cheers of "Finally!" and "About damn time!".
While for Ableton, it'll probably be a huge celebration after years of planning, experimenting and implementing. Who knows how far along they are... Its not done, that is all we know.

We're long past posting test results on the forum. Most of the actual info around this issue comes from Ableton's Nico Starke. It has been technically explained. Any test posted shows only 1 scenario. If we all used Live in the same way, this thread would be just 20 pages of +1's.

Image
A big applause for your comment !
I didn't expect a honest comment like this from one of the greatest Ableton Live supporters here.

You're the only one who has been clear about the problem and expressed it here.
...and earned my deepest respect for that !

We're "mostly" all here to push things to become better.

There are so many pro's and Ableton supporters who didn't say anything all the time.
That didn't do any good for their reputation...


I also think that all who are defending Live 's PDC failure have hurt Live more then anyone.
Being rude and disrespect full, made this thread bloated and the discussion more worse then it deserved.

Those "defenders" actually are the reason for bigger and harder complaints in the end.

Most people having problems with PDC would have made one comment and that's it.
The ones who called them over reacting are the ones who over reacted and made this thread going bad.
And that was going to get more attention in public too...!

Less fan-boy's attack and more constructive help would be helping Live more then to defend failures.
I doubt they have what it needs to see it that way...
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

petit nuage
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:31 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:52 pm

@simplissimus: yes so true ...big THANKS again hoffman2k to help us on this :wink: .

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