LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:59 pm

hoffman2k wrote: Its funny to hear some people say that Ableton should have figured out PDC before they added automation recording.
Session recording is easy stuff compared to PDC. Its a way larger issue than just automation.
Completely understand that session recording is not PDC, I actually think these issues are comparable in terms of difficulty, but we have to accept at least that automation PDC and session automation are linked to each other, session automation is using the automation system of Ableton Live, and it's the automation system that doesn't compensate, as a developer myself, if I knew I had to rewrite an automation system, I would've started with that effort rather than patching the existing system... I doubt they have these systems isolated, work on compensation directly relates to the automation lanes, and I've always understood that to be the reason why it wasn't easy to fix... the automation tracks are linked to the transport track.. and live seems to use multiple transports, one with compensated audio+midi playing along, and the other playing time, triggering clips and automation seems to run on this track, when it should be on the linear track, and that's where the headfuck comes in because how to make that work with session view?.. anyway, the main point is that the development of these things are not in isolation they're deeply linked, so that's why there was talk of a rewrite... and ultimately I think the really damning about this whole issue is that Live 9 was not a rewrite, and was just patched up... nobody is arguing that they're not working on it, I think the major source of frustration is that it's not in this update.

I think that's what it comes down to really, I can accept that it takes time to develop things and that you can't have everything you want, but there are limits to how long you should wait for things.... if Live 9 had correct PDC and session view automation, I would've been happy for a while, then after a while I may expect more improvements... my point is that we expect certain things in certain time frames, but it is a perpetual inevitable process.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:59 pm

hoffman2k wrote:*Nerd Alert*
like your name by the way, I had some of those back in the day, blew my mind

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:07 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:
Less fan-boy's attack and more constructive help would be helping Live more then to defend failures.
I doubt they have what it needs to see it that way...
this is really it in a nutshell for me, I don't think anyone can defend Ableton on this issue, I actually find the downplaying still quite difficult to understand... I can see maybe give them a break... but I never said anything about PDC for the whole Live8 cycle, I accepted it wasn't in 8 and was fully prepared to give Ableton plenty of time to prepare their next major revision... it was a long time, people have argued that they didn't spend 3 years on this update, but that's the gap between 8 and 9, so that's the time they're given... I don't personally care if half of that time was spent fixing 8, that kinda makes it worse... so yeah, hard to defend, I would rather people drop their defense and use that energy on the offense.

hoffman2k
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:37 pm

Probably should have used some sarcasm tags in there :lol:

I was in fact defending Ableton. Hold on, I can fix this!

[Sarcasm]...Sure, some companies already figured it out and by that logic, its a disgrace that Ableton didn't. Even though other companies did it in a linear environment. But instant scrubbing is like launching a scene I suppose. So boo on Ableton for not at least implementing it on the Arrangement side...[/Sarcasm]

PDC isn't astrophysics, but for Live it'll require some Space/Time thinking.
The whole rewrite needed for session automation story got updated ages ago. Ableton teamed up with the dark wizards at Cycling, which led to a solution being found. Which led to Live 9...
PDC only started getting decent in other apps in the past 3 or 4 years, with "improved PDC" popping up in the changelogs during major updates.
Some of us here have (not so) fond memories of using Rewire/Soundflower/Jack in their 1.0 incarnations.
That is even before we had MIDI Tracks in Live.
sdfak1234 wrote:I think that's what it comes down to really, I can accept that it takes time to develop things and that you can't have everything you want, but there are limits to how long you should wait for things....
No there aren't. I waited 9 years for Session Automation. 6 years for more MIDI Plugins. 30 minutes for Cosines in .ams files. 8 years for having a couple of sessions without having to file a bug report. And those 3 delay modes we have now, those cost us a crate of beer to Claes, who now works at Bitwig. He did that in a week.

Look, I'm not out for an argument. I literally hit the jackpot with Live 8 and MFL. Cleared most of my requests, since I was already a max user. Live 9 is the icing. Live 10 will be the second dessert. Hopefully with the PDC fix.
If all you can see is just a list of features as a result of 3 years work, you haven't really been paying attention.
Ableton completely overhauled the way we report bugs and how they handle them.
3 years ago, the only topic on this forum was how crap Live 8 is and how Ableton sucks.
This is one thread with one big issue. That is what I call progress!

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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:47 pm

sdfak1234 wrote:I actually find the downplaying still quite difficult to understand...
that's a big part of the problem with this thread, you. after all the writing we've both done you only understand one side of the issue. you get emotional too quickly.
I would rather people drop their defense and use that energy on the offense.
you should learn to live in a world where not everybody agrees with you, that's life. by presenting all sides of a topic we can learn much more about it.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:54 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
No there aren't. I waited 9 years for Session Automation. 6 years for more MIDI Plugins. 30 minutes for Cosines in .ams files. 8 years for having a couple of sessions without having to file a bug report. And those 3 delay modes we have now, those cost us a crate of beer to Claes, who now works at Bitwig. He did that in a week.

Look, I'm not out for an argument. I literally hit the jackpot with Live 8 and MFL. Cleared most of my requests, since I was already a max user. Live 9 is the icing. Live 10 will be the second dessert. Hopefully with the PDC fix.
If all you can see is just a list of features as a result of 3 years work, you haven't really been paying attention.
Ableton completely overhauled the way we report bugs and how they handle them.
3 years ago, the only topic on this forum was how crap Live 8 is and how Ableton sucks.
This is one thread with one big issue. That is what I call progress!

Well I should've said there are limits to how long I will wait for something... I have no choice but to wait if a feature simply doesn't exist, I get that point completely, but how long do you wait for someone to implement something that is implemented in other apps.... let me make this clear, I wanted to continue using Live, but there was Cubase that had the features I need, so I needed incentives to wait.

I've been doing computer music for 20 years, so I'm well aware of the upgrade situation. I think a lot of these points go without saying. I am saying there is a limit to this concept and the PDC issue crosses a line. I've already argued my points on this.

I haven't really been paying attention to Ableton's updates, there don't really concern me, the only issue that concerns me right now is this one, it's the only thread I contribute to....

I want to make another point about this feature race people keep referring to... I want to make it clear, automation on PDC is the only feature I want, and the reason I am involved in this discussion is because I feel Ableton is almost perfect for me, as it is though, this isn't just 1 missing feature that I'd like, it's a showstopper for me, and given how right everything else is, it's particularly annoying.... so no I won't be waiting around for the next feature, I'd be happy until the next cycle. I think this is true for a lot of people here, I think we're seeing another fanboy meme getting out of hand here.

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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:58 pm

Tone Deft wrote: that's a big part of the problem with this thread, you. after all the writing we've both done you only understand one side of the issue. you get emotional too quickly.
I do get emotional, but it isn't too quickly, I've stated repeatedly that this emotion has been building for years... but whatever... I just want to know something. You mention a 'side' of an issue, to me this really telling, what exactly do you see as the 2 sides? maybe this is where I'm missing something.... this thread is called PDC improved or not? , it has not been improved, so what are the 2 sides? what side of the issue am I missing? people who think it's a problem and people who don't?? because I think it's been established that it is an issue.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:00 pm

Tone Deft wrote: you should learn to live in a world where not everybody agrees with you, that's life. by presenting all sides of a topic we can learn much more about it.
This is not a debate involving opinion, there are hard facts on the table, there are no sides of this topic... you're presenting this as a 2 sided debate.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:04 pm

or maybe the opposition is between people who support Ableton and people who dont? I'd like to get other peoples opinion on what debate we're actually having here because I think Tone's may be off the mark...at least I know he sees this as issue with sides.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:07 pm

Tone Deft wrote: that's a big part of the problem with this thread, you.
I have to repeat again that I don't respect your opinion, you've demonstrated over and over again that you don't even understand this problem properly... I wasn't trying to be mean with that mentally retarded comment by the way, I was being serious, your points definitely come off as someone with less than optimal intelligence, your arguments are always really rudimentary, I have yet to read a single point that hasn't already been said by someone else, plus there is just no sophistication in your remarks. One example of this is how you keep replying to things out of context, it's like you pick and choose which arguments you can handle, and then you extract that bit out and forget about the rest. Also your position has been one of an Ableton fanboy, you know when people say 'fanboy' they're referring to people like you?, so if you want to establish what is a 'big part of the problem' with this thread, you may want to go through and look at all the times fanboy is referred to.

crumhorn
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by crumhorn » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:13 pm

"Fanboy Fanboy Fanboy" FFS change the record. can't you have a conversation without calling people names.
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:17 pm

crumhorn wrote:"Fanboy Fanboy Fanboy" FFS change the record. can't you have a conversation without calling people names.
I think you'll find I don't use that word often. I also don't call people names, but whatever. Heres the bottom line, I don't like Tone Deft, I don't have an opinion about anyone else and look at his posts to me before you start giving me hassle, I was responding to him- I just don't like someone inferior to me making assumptions about what I am and what I'm feeling.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:22 pm

hoffman2k wrote:Live 10 will be the second dessert. Hopefully with the PDC fix.
That is a clear word for all who seek for a fixed PDC in Live9.
They won't get it and maybe get it in Live 10, around 2015 !

Those are the right and clear comments about what to expect. Thanks a lot !

Anyone who still ask for fixed PDC in Live 9 is just loosing his time.
The only thing that could force Ableton to fix PDC, is not buying it until it's done.
Last edited by simpli.cissimus on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:28 pm

crumhorn wrote:"Fanboy Fanboy Fanboy" FFS change the record. can't you have a conversation without calling people names.
the guy's got problems.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:37 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
crumhorn wrote:"Fanboy Fanboy Fanboy" FFS change the record. can't you have a conversation without calling people names.
the guy's got problems.
I've got loads of problems, but I can assure you, you are not 1 of them. Classic Deaf response BTW, once again not manning up to questions, deflecting arguments rather than making them and a classic Tone fake assumption about the person hes talking to. You are on a message board, you dont know who or what you're talking about, so dont assume anything. Too funny that you would respond in such a typical fashion. I just think its rather weak and Im sure its obvious to others.

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