LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
radiance2004
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by radiance2004 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:02 pm

RCUS wrote:
I can deal with delay, timing adjustments are part of the mixing process.
+1

I'm constant fiddling with the delay parameters...it's crucial to get a nice groove.
Some sounds need to be shifted in time, even when you know their timing is spot on.

hoffman2k
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hoffman2k » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:44 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:I don't know why you ask for a comment from Ableton.

If they say it doesn't work, they hurt them self.
If they say it works but it doesn't, then even more.
If they say we work on it, but can't figure it out soon, then they look incompetent.

Whatever they say, they won't look good !

The only way they can keep their reputation, is to stay quiet, fix PDC and release it.
[nis] on Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:34 am wrote:Hi folks, automation data are not (and have never been) delay-compensated in Live. We know that this isn't an ideal solution, but that's the way it is right now. There are however several PDC improvements planned for future versions, so this is likely going to change one day. I can't promise anything, though (as always).

Best,
Nico Starke
Ableton Specification Team
I think I got about 2 out of 3 there. I eliminated option 4 since it was kinda the same like 3.
So its planned but not done yet. Nearing the 3 year mark since that statement.
Not promised, but definitely acknowledged.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:57 am

radiance2004 wrote:I think I got about 2 out of 3 there. I eliminated option 4 since it was kinda the same like 3.
So its planned but not done yet. Nearing the 3 year mark since that statement.
Not promised, but definitely acknowledged.
Excellent !!!


How would you describe that Ableton released Live 8 with PDC announced
and no word of PDC not fully or partial working, and change later the manual by adding a note ?
Does that look like they knew that it isn't full working ?
Did they forget to mention it..., or got surprised them self too ?
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

leisuremuffin
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:51 am

PDC was introduced as a feature in live 5.
it never compensated for automation, graphics, or internal clock. Only audio.

to clarify for people just checking in now, or who are confused, this only affects you in two situations:

1) If you are drawing automation on a track that is being adjusted by PDC.
---> You can't fix this by bouncing the audio and adjusting the wave, you need to draw or move the automation later to correct. it is the automation that is not compensated in this case, not the audio.

2) If you are using a tempo based effect at the end of a chain of effects that are being adjusted by PDC.
---->here's where bouncing may help you. If you need to use a tempo synced effect after a bunch of other effects that are introducing latency, bounce the other effects and then apply the tempo synched effect to the bounced audio. no need to shift any files at that point.



For some users, like myself, these situations come up very rarely. For other users, it's totally crippling.

I know most people already understand this, but it just seems like there is some confusion...


.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:45 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:PDC was introduced as a feature in live 5.
Yep..., but at that time there was no VST-support in Live.
It was PDC only for Live native effects and instruments.

I don't have the manual from that version, but if they mentioned no PDC for automation then,
they left it out when they released Live 8. I have that first manual from version 8.0.1.
No word of not full or partial working PDC...!

Do you want me to post it or do you have your own boxed version and copy...?

Do you think I would have switched to Live 8 if I knew about this PDC flaw ?
No I wouldn't !!!

They wrote it has PDC, and to me this means a full working PDC.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

dolomick
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by dolomick » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:52 am

leisuremuffin wrote:PDC was introduced as a feature in live 5.
it never compensated for automation, graphics, or internal clock. Only audio.

to clarify for people just checking in now, or who are confused, this only affects you in two situations:

1) If you are drawing automation on a track that is being adjusted by PDC.
---> You can't fix this by bouncing the audio and adjusting the wave, you need to draw or move the automation later to correct. it is the automation that is not compensated in this case, not the audio.

2) If you are using a tempo based effect at the end of a chain of effects that are being adjusted by PDC.
---->here's where bouncing may help you. If you need to use a tempo synced effect after a bunch of other effects that are introducing latency, bounce the other effects and then apply the tempo synched effect to the bounced audio. no need to shift any files at that point.
.lm.
Can you clarify a bit more on point number one? How does one know if their track is being adjusted by PDC? I've been gone from Live for a long time, so sorry for my ignorance.

leisuremuffin
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:05 am

simpli.cissimus wrote:
Yep..., but at that time there was no VST-support in Live.
It was PDC only for Live native effects and instruments.

I don't have the manual from that version, but if they mentioned no PDC for automation then,
they left it out when they released Live 8. I have that first manual from version 8.0.1.
No word of not full or partial working PDC...!

Do you want me to post it or do you have your own boxed version and copy...?

Do you think I would have switched to Live 8 if I knew about this PDC flaw ?
No I wouldn't !!!

They wrote it has PDC, and to me this means a full working PDC.
No, you could use 3rd party effects starting in 2? I think. Live 4 could use 3rd part fx and instruments and had no pdc at all. I don't have any old manuals lying around so I have no idea what they say about pdc. But really, I don't give a fuck what software you use or don't, it doesn't matter to me.

.lm
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

leisuremuffin
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:10 am

dolomick wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:PDC was introduced as a feature in live 5.
it never compensated for automation, graphics, or internal clock. Only audio.

to clarify for people just checking in now, or who are confused, this only affects you in two situations:

1) If you are drawing automation on a track that is being adjusted by PDC.
---> You can't fix this by bouncing the audio and adjusting the wave, you need to draw or move the automation later to correct. it is the automation that is not compensated in this case, not the audio.

2) If you are using a tempo based effect at the end of a chain of effects that are being adjusted by PDC.
---->here's where bouncing may help you. If you need to use a tempo synced effect after a bunch of other effects that are introducing latency, bounce the other effects and then apply the tempo synched effect to the bounced audio. no need to shift any files at that point.
.lm.

Can you clarify a bit more on point number one? How does one know if their track is being adjusted by PDC? I've been gone from Live for a long time, so sorry for my ignorance.
It depends on what plug ins you have on the track. If you use built in plugs, or CPU light plug ins, you probably won't have any problems with it. People have posted lists of plug in latencies around here somewhere, if you know how much latency a plug in creates that is how much the automation data will be off. Of course, the latency will also depend on your audio buffer settings and what sample rate you are working at. Kind of complicated!

.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:42 am

leisuremuffin wrote:
simpli.cissimus wrote:
Yep..., but at that time there was no VST-support in Live.
It was PDC only for Live native effects and instruments.

I don't have the manual from that version, but if they mentioned no PDC for automation then,
they left it out when they released Live 8. I have that first manual from version 8.0.1.
No word of not full or partial working PDC...!

Do you want me to post it or do you have your own boxed version and copy...?

Do you think I would have switched to Live 8 if I knew about this PDC flaw ?
No I wouldn't !!!

They wrote it has PDC, and to me this means a full working PDC.
No, you could use 3rd party effects starting in 2? I think. Live 4 could use 3rd part fx and instruments and had no pdc at all. I don't have any old manuals lying around so I have no idea what they say about pdc. But really, I don't give a fuck what software you use or don't, it doesn't matter to me.

.lm
see..., I must admit I thought vst was much later supported...
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

Bunky Freaks
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Bunky Freaks » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:54 pm

just skimmed through this thread and didn't see this small info bit mentioned:

When freshly loading a set, potentially some plugins require a reset to fully align the PDC. I noticed this with dynamics effect Syrah, which has variable latency due to the switchable look-a-head feature. Only double-clicking the stop button or de- and reactivating the plugin aligns the timing in Live when look-a-head is engaged. Else, the timing stays off during the session. When adjusting latency-sensible parameters during production, the procedure has to be repeated, as the plugin does not "push" the changed internal latency to the host.

Other plugins with variable latency (i.e. option to switching linear phase oversampling on/off) might suffer from the same issue, I had no time to verify this tough.

Afaik, this has nothing to do with the automation issue but it might interfere with measuring/testing it.

Running latest official Live8 32 bit on Win7 64 bit.

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:22 pm

@bunky freaks: interesting ...thanks for the info
all this things about pdc/adc scared me more and more ...maybe i will desactivate delay compensation and BAASTA ! :wink:

its about a loss of wokflow, being paranoid about timing issues...things like that adds more and more questions and choices and that can sterilize or at least damaged the simple joy to make some music spontaneously ...


so for me, since i ve known the existence of this PDC ISSUE on ableton forum... its becoming problematic because these timing issues and their workarounds can complexified and corrupted why i love LIVE more than any others daws... :its MAGIC WORKFLOW ...deep but clear, simple and "SPONTANEOUS" about music .

sometimes, i have the this bad feeling that i cant trust my tool anymore ...because timing MUST be precise, its a reference after all not a feature .

for me spontaneity , clarity and workflow are the best live 's arguments...
so this is why, this pdc/adc full implementation is essential NOW and free for live 8 users too !

signed :a desperate customer ... :roll:


ps: please ableton if you have some infos, tricks, tips ,advices ..enlighten us ..

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:35 pm

The saddest about this PDC thing is that even Live's own effects aren't compensated.

Let's think of a track where you want some delays on specific places like the end of a phrase or so.

You add Live's Simple Delay and automate it at those regions to go on or off.
...but...., unfortunately the automation and the PDC compensation of audio are not in the same time-line.

There are workarounds for this, but they are time and work intensive and you have to fiddle around this.

Where is here the fast workflow and intuitive music creation ???

------------------

How about Live-Racks ?

Lets say you add more then one effect chain. ! ( All Live's native effects)
You and up having on one chain a delay and on the other not.
Booom !!!
Both chains out of alignment and your sound messed up,
until you like that and think it's cool that Live is the only DAW that can do such things !

------------------

Those things are there and if you try to use Live-Racks more heavily,
then you reach a point when it's unreliable.

It's O.K., not everyone likes experimenting and does more stick to basics usage.
Last edited by simpli.cissimus on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:45 pm

yeahhh so true ... naively, i was thinking that live native plugs were, all, and totally compensated ...disappointing...
Last edited by petit nuage on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bunky Freaks
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Bunky Freaks » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:45 pm

petit nuage wrote:
sometimes, i have the this bad feeling that i cant trust my tool anymore ...because timing MUST be precise, its a reference after all not a feature .
Definitely! I stumbled over my findings when I reloaded a project and the snare was all flabby and not as punchy as I remembered mixing it. This was due to hihats and percussions destroying the snare transients due to the minimal delay of the snare track in relation to the other drum tracks.

This really drove me nuts until I found the reason. Now I am extra paranoid when using Live and building and continuing productions (though this very specific issue might not be Abletons fault, who knows).

Sorry for this kind of off-topic discussion.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:47 pm

...the funny thing is that some here say they never had those PDC problems,
and I think to myself: "What do they do with Live then..."? :lol:

addon...:
I just remember what they do :roll: : "Spend more time here on the forum" ! :mrgreen:
Last edited by simpli.cissimus on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

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