LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:49 pm

Bunky Freaks wrote:
petit nuage wrote:
sometimes, i have the this bad feeling that i cant trust my tool anymore ...because timing MUST be precise, its a reference after all not a feature .
Definitely! I stumbled over my findings when I reloaded a project and the snare was all flabby and not as punchy as I remembered mixing it. This was due to hihats and percussions destroying the snare transients due to the minimal delay of the snare track in relation to the other drum tracks.

This really drove me nuts until I found the reason. Now I am extra paranoid when using Live and building and continuing productions (though this very specific issue might not be Abletons fault, who knows).

Sorry for this kind of off-topic discussion.
If you have to be serious, then you must bounce all tracks to audio
and have a deep look if they are at the right starting point.
...all without any effects on a track anymore...!!!

It's a shame, but this is the only way to finish critical productions...
Last edited by simpli.cissimus on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:53 pm

@bunky freaks : SAME HERE ... no its not totally ableton's fault because apparently some badly programmed plugs may be a part of the equation too..but im not expert in this domain...
Last edited by petit nuage on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:54 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:The saddest about this PDC thing is that even Live's own effects aren't compensated.

Let's think of a track where you want some delays on specific places like the end of a phrase or so.

You add Live's Simple Delay and automate it at those regions to go on or off.
...but...., unfortunately the automation and the PDC compensation of audio are not in the same time-line.

------------------

How about Live-Racks ?

Lets say you add more then one effect chain. ! ( All Live's native effects)
You and up having on one chain a delay and on the other not.
Booom !!!
can you elaborate on both of these more? for the first, there are a few effects which are not compensated, but afaik simple delay is. if you avoid the list that 3dot posted (mostly HQ effects and effects that include lookahead), i haven't been able to create automation issues. (unless you intentionally introduce a loop?) if you know of a case like this, i'd like to reproduce it for my own education.

(if you include vst effects anywhere, then all bets are off... and depending on what you are trying to automate, could be a vst effect anywhere...)

same for the second... those should be both automation and PDC aligned. granted i have only played with pdc in racks, not automation... will have to try that.

ableton isn't making any more effort to compensate automation for internal effects than they do for external effects, but in general they seem to not incur the latencies that vsts do (tried my tests with EQ8)

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:59 pm

Nice to know what effects you should not use and having a list of those.

But may I ask you, if you think it's O.K. to give up the freedom to use any effects you want ?
Where is the sense in that ?

I read all about the workarounds and I don't like one of them !
They might help you to finish a project, but I don't like to do future projects with all that in mind.

Have to keep a list beside me to know what not to use.
Bounce any new step, might not like it have to go back and forth for that !
Can't use automation on a simple effect like a delay !

All that sums up and makes it just crap to work !
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:11 pm

:lol: ...TOTAL WORKFLOW ... (but in fact its more that :cry: )

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:28 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:Nice to know what effects you should not use and having a list of those.

But may I ask you, if you think it's O.K. to give up the freedom to use any effects you want ?
don't know how we got here from a simple request for information, but... no, i don't think it's OK, i think it's a real workflow killer. i just hadn't seen these particular error modes and would like to reproduce them.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:32 pm

theophilus wrote:
simpli.cissimus wrote:Nice to know what effects you should not use and having a list of those.

But may I ask you, if you think it's O.K. to give up the freedom to use any effects you want ?
don't know how we got here from a simple request for information, but... no, i don't think it's OK, i think it's a real workflow killer. i just hadn't seen these particular error modes and would like to reproduce them.
Have you tested a Live-Rack with two or more effect-chains ?
Try that and see if Live compensates the effect chains !

Use only Live's effects, like any delay.
Try one lane without any effect chain inside the Rack too.
...must be interesting to see the results!
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:43 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:
theophilus wrote:
simpli.cissimus wrote:Nice to know what effects you should not use and having a list of those.

But may I ask you, if you think it's O.K. to give up the freedom to use any effects you want ?
don't know how we got here from a simple request for information, but... no, i don't think it's OK, i think it's a real workflow killer. i just hadn't seen these particular error modes and would like to reproduce them.
Have you tested a Live-Rack with two or more effect-chains ?
Try that and see if Live compensates the effect chains !

Use only Live's effects, like any delay.
Try one lane without any effect chain inside the Rack too.
...must be interesting to see the results!
i have tried that, for raw sample alignment - those pictures are posted earlier in the thread.
and i have tried a long single chain of eq8s and verified that at least the midi timing is perfectly in sync at the end of the chain (which means automation would be in sync too).
i have not put the two together yet, or tried simple delay yet, but based on what you said i will try it today.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:55 pm

theophilus wrote: i have tried that, for raw sample alignment - those pictures are posted earlier in the thread.
and i have tried a long single chain of eq8s and verified that at least the midi timing is perfectly in sync at the end of the chain (which means automation would be in sync too).
i have not put the two together yet, or tried simple delay yet, but based on what you said i will try it today.
I'm really curious what you'll find...
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:44 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:
theophilus wrote: i have tried that, for raw sample alignment - those pictures are posted earlier in the thread.
and i have tried a long single chain of eq8s and verified that at least the midi timing is perfectly in sync at the end of the chain (which means automation would be in sync too).
i have not put the two together yet, or tried simple delay yet, but based on what you said i will try it today.
I'm really curious what you'll find...

ok, didn't specifically try automation, but midi sync usually is the same as automation sync, so this should work.

basically, i didn't see any issue when using many simpledelays back to back causing sync issues down the line.
in the first one, there is one simple delay after the kick on C1, and about 6 iirc after the kick on C2 (shown).
you can see that not only are they in sync, they are on the grid where the volume shaper is. automation should be perfect here.

as soon as i drop a VST effect in the chain (the victim is RP-delay, which is zero-latency, but really any VST would have the same effect) then while the sounds mix fine (no change in sound), it's now off the grid, as you can see in the second picture. in that one i pumped up the bpm & the audio buffer to exaggerate the effect. i forgot to take a new picture for the first one, but even with the bpm & audio buffer pumped way up, the picture didn't change (i.e. it was still on beat) so i didn't bother.

Image
Image

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:33 pm

Sorry..., but we didn't understand each other well...!
Adding many delays in one row isn't what I mentioned.
Do not use a Drum-Rack, make one combined Instrument-Rack with more layers.

You should try to take a complete effect chain and combine that into one rack.
Then you add inside this rack another effect-chain in parallel.
Maybe a third layer without any effect too.
Add on one any effects you like to test and on the second a delay.
Do not add delay on both...!!!

Now you should have three layers with two having effect-chain and one empty.

Try that and check what results you get.

greets


addon: I think you will have to use more of these volume shapers.
One on each layer to have a separated audio signal from the chain they belong.
Otherwise you get again only one combined audio from all together.

Here are some vids how to make a instrument rack(just in case :wink: ):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_fFZQpwYkY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA6MTidtPAQ
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

theophilus
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:54 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by theophilus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:03 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:Sorry..., but we didn't understand each other well...!
Adding many delays in one row isn't what I mentioned.
Do not use a Drum-Rack, make one combined Instrument-Rack with more layers.
sure, instrument racks could be different from drum racks. and maybe there is an issue if grouped.

i do want the single volume shaper at the end; ideally, even at the end of all these crazy chains, we should not have any automation delay/midi out of sync. if it's true there, it's true down the chain too.

leisuremuffin
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by leisuremuffin » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:53 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote: addon...:
I just remember what they do :roll: : "Spend more time here on the forum" ! :mrgreen:
says a guy who seems to spend an awful lot of time talking complete nonsense on this forum.

i'm really sorry that this issue cripples your workflow, but i won't accept your insults. Just because what i do doesn't run into these problems doesn't invalidate what i do, or somehow mean that i'm not pushing the program. What do you think i'm doing? playing one loop and jerking off into a sock while it plays? how would you even know? I have a effect rack in my live performance template that has nested chains of reverbs that feedback into each other. That's a little bit beyond just basic use of the concept and i have no issues with PDC there. I'm sure it's not compensated correctly, but it sounds great. I have never had a problem with the automation being out of time, maybe its because i write in most of my automation with a controller and hardly ever draw it. Maybe i'm just lucky. Or maybe it's because i simply never write stuff that relies on sharply timed automation.

what the fuck is your problem, anyway?



.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:30 pm

it's all he posts about and he still has to be corrected on his understanding of the topic. he's the Grover Norquist of the forum, a complete buffoon with no substance behind his constant whining about what's been put on paper years ago. I don't know why anybody addresses him. it's not about PDC for him, it's about his ability to be an ass.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

fx23
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by fx23 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:57 pm

to people searching best workarounds:

ive been really affected by pdc issues for a long time now and i spent lot of time searching workarounds.
i found no nudging/delaying system decently possible and imo bouncing each insert point is a nightmare and killing creative process/modularity, not to mention disk space.

so the 'i found best' workaround that remain "not cool, but doable" is to realign each concerned automation in case of hearable drift/latency by 'rolling' the play header.

basically set the automation/modulation to loop

ie if you are gating each beat on a bar and hear a drift that fu8cks attacks, display modulation, disable snap and move the playing header to the end of the loop (only on automation lane, clip/midi notes remain normal), and slowly offset it back until audio result work as expected. this mean the start of 'normal' automation will be later compared to grid, and as audio as been delayed man can find the needed amount so that both will match again as they would if was properly compensated.(= 'roll' of the amount of latency)

then man is still able to draw modulations/automs/keep previously done/ snapping on grid as usual. (btwn this won't correct the fact midi timing infos of plugins will still be out of sync, but at least man can manually correct ie messed attacks caused by modulations/automation).

quite boring if you had ie 50 clips with 5 automs to realign caused ie by a new drop of vst with latency, but in few case this is still doable and works...

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