LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

[simpli.cissimus]

LOL, is 400 instances of EQ8 in HiQ on one track extreme? Cause i did that and there was no audible latency.

You may read that first...

eq8 in HiQ mode will introduce small amounts of delay (1-2 samples per instance). in non-HQ mode, should introduce none at all.

...and then explain why you don't hear a latency, especially when using 400 instances of EQ in HQ !
You would have about 400-800 samples latency and that is audible !

[simpli.cissimus]

unless you're doing something really extreme."

That is a good point !
Now it's up to decide what is extreme and what is not.

Is automating extreme ?
Is adding an effect after automation extreme ?
Is experimenting extreme ?

I think that having PDC problems for over three years "is" extreme !
...and there is no end in sight, what tops even the extreme !

learn to quote, dumbass. anyway, you've chosen to ignore the context of what i'm saying. i'd attempt to explain it to you, but there's really no point.


.lm.

I was quoting on purpose what I though is worth to quote !
...and wash your mouth, or you get in trouble with your mom for the bad words you use.
Don't you have any manors ?

[leisuremuffin]

LOL, is 400 instances of EQ8 in HiQ on one track extreme? Cause i did that and there was no audible latency.

You may read that first...

eq8 in HiQ mode will introduce small amounts of delay (1-2 samples per instance). in non-HQ mode, should introduce none at all.

...and then explain why you don't hear a latency, especially when using 400 instances of EQ in HQ !
You would have about 400-800 samples latency and that is audible !

i didn't hear a latency, because at 88.2 samples a millisecond it would be pretty hard to hear 400-800 samples. lol.


and my name is leisuremuffin, not theophilus. (uh, not in the above thing, theo did write that, but in the one you fucked up. Remarkable you were able to do it right in this one.) i'm the one who wrote that. that's what i'm saying "learn to quote" about.


.lm.

[simpli.cissimus]

LOL, is 400 instances of EQ8 in HiQ on one track extreme? Cause i did that and there was no audible latency.

You may read that first...

eq8 in HiQ mode will introduce small amounts of delay (1-2 samples per instance). in non-HQ mode, should introduce none at all.

...and then explain why you don't hear a latency, especially when using 400 instances of EQ in HQ !
You would have about 400-800 samples latency and that is audible !

i didn't hear a latency, because at 88.2 samples a millisecond it would be pretty hard to hear 400-800 samples. lol.


and my name is leisuremuffin, not theophilus. (uh, not in the above thing, theo did write that, but in the one you fucked up. Remarkable you were able to do it right in this one.) i'm the one who wrote that. that's what i'm saying "learn to quote" about.


.lm.

I am not sure why you can't follow a logical consensus ?!
(maybe to much CnH2n+1OH ? )

I was quoting theophilus to show you that he confirmed the EQ having latency !
It's not my problem when you see all wrong but not yourself...

[leisuremuffin]

ugh, for someone who can hear a delay of 9ms with their naked ears, you're pretty dense. look at the post that i actually said, "learn to quote" about. It is wrong. Just like 99% of your attempts to quote in this thread that are massive fails.


i think it's really funny that someone who doesn't understand basic digital audio concepts or even how to use the quote feature of a forum has appointed themselves an expert on the PDC issue.


.lm.

[simpli.cissimus]

ugh, for someone who can hear a delay of 9ms with their naked ears, you're pretty dense. look at the post that i actually said, "learn to quote" about. It is wrong. Just like 99% of your attempts to quote in this thread that are massive fails.


i think it's really funny that someone who doesn't understand basic digital audio concepts or even how to use the quote feature of a forum has appointed themselves an expert on the PDC issue.


.lm.

It's not much about hearing as it is more the feeling or not feeling of a tight rhythm section.
You should go and read the whole thread from the beginning.

You just don't have any good to say and hooked yourself on childish accusations about me, being unable to quote !
Is that the way you try to win a discussion and lay to bed ?

[H20nly]

It's not much about hearing as it is more the feeling or not feeling

i mostly feel it in my wrist and right middle finger after adding around the 300th EQ8 on a track.

[fishmonkey]

LOL, is 400 instances of EQ8 in HiQ on one track extreme? Cause i did that and there was no audible latency.

You may read that first...

eq8 in HiQ mode will introduce small amounts of delay (1-2 samples per instance). in non-HQ mode, should introduce none at all.

...and then explain why you don't hear a latency, especially when using 400 instances of EQ in HQ !
You would have about 400-800 samples latency and that is audible !

i didn't hear a latency, because at 88.2 samples a millisecond it would be pretty hard to hear 400-800 samples. lol.

well, actually it really depends what you are doing. in some scenarios 4.5 - 9 milliseconds delay makes very little difference to the sound, in others, that amount of delay is very audible. for example, if you have recorded a pair of microphones on an acoustic source, say a singer with a guitar, then even a 1 millisecond difference can make a big difference to the sound.

essentially, if you have two or more complex signals, then phase discrepancies can really suck the life and power out of the sound...

that said, being aware of and working with phase discrepancies is an important part of mixing, and always will be, no matter which DAW you use.

[leisuremuffin]

In the context we were discussing we were talking about delay on one signal, not phase. I'm certain I can hear a 9ms delay if the context is phase between two instances of the same audio, that would be easy! But for a latency on a tempo based effect, no way.

And just to remind you, we're talking about the latency of automation data and tempo based effects relation to the clock. All of the audio is compensated correctly in live. (With a few exceptions, some parallel chains in racks and on returns. As far as insert effects it's all correct. )


.lm.

[simpli.cissimus]

It's not much about hearing as it is more the feeling or not feeling

i mostly feel it in my wrist and right middle finger after adding around the 300th EQ8 on a track.

It must be some other thing you do after/between posting here, that makes your wrist hurt.

[ze2be]

...and wash your mouth, or you get in trouble with your mom for the bad words you use.
Don't you have any manors ?

When you basicly say "fuck you fanboys" in your signature, you seriously cant expect to be treated with silk glows in the middle of fanboy town.

Some of these additudes bring a lot of cloudy disturbance to the discussion. See, most of you have some good points, it just doesnt go through because of these additudes.

Im sort of in the middle here. First I just would like to figure out whats going on, so that I can adjust to it. And I do get bad timing/muddy trancients from time to time on the heavy sort of projects, without doing anything extreme really. Its more that it adds up over time. The kick might be a tiny bit off sync with the hats. Then later on a send delay might be a bit off sync with the snare. Later there is even more with new automation. Right there and then you dont realy care, but in the final stages of the composition, if you listen for it, you might be supriced! The more trancients are off each others timing, the mudier the end mix.

I will do some research on my own when I get some time. For now, with those spesific projects its rescue operation. Only 2 out of 20 projects of mine were bad, and they all are sort of heavy loaders with multiple lanes of automation on each track. So its not a huge problem to me, but a small to medium one. Heres the thing: I might do more then 2 compressors on many tracks, because of kick ducking, snare ducking, and also normal compression. On heavy track loads you might need heavy side chaining aka ducking to make it all work together. I use a sort of channel strip rack on all tracks, with eq8, limiter, auto pan and auto filter. Then a rack with 2 side chained gates and the kick and the snare sidechain compressors. Usually not a problem.. But when all this stuf gets automated, then send effects automated, then new plugs in between, in the end.. It might turn out a bit of a trainwreck. I guarante you would not want to release it like this!

Im not saying my workflow is perfect, far from it, and its constantly evolving! I will build a new tighter latency centric template workflow with live 9. But for now im at the final stages of an album, 3 years in the process, and I cant really change to much this late. Whats done is done. Just get the timing right, and out the door to mastering. New problems, new lessons, new knowledge, learn, improve, evolve, become happy, move on ->

[crumhorn]

treated with silk glows

I like the sound of that!

[leisuremuffin]

ze2be:

see, you sound like a rational person. And i can feel your pain. What you're describing though, are bugs beyond the scope of just the problem with the current behavior of live's PDC. If you have audio elements going out of time, that is a serious bug. Automation won't affect where the audio is coming in, only where the parameter change caused by the automation is coming in. Also, the tempo based effects issue is just for that effects relation to the clock. If you experience snares or kicks moving around in time, that is a serious problem that i haven't experienced and that is beyond what the acknowledged shortcomings of how live works.


The audio side of lives compensation works perfect in most situations. i use multiple instances of parallel compression on multiple returns for different groups in pretty much every track i write. This has never resulted in any timing problems for me. Where it won't compensate on returns, is in feedback path, which you can check for yourself very quickly. --->put 3 compressors on a return track set the threshold super high, turn off makeup, make the ratio 1:1 so they aren't really doing anything to the signal and you can hear the transients clearly as they are unaffected. turn the lookahead all the way up to 10ms on all three. now send audio from a track to that return. Do you hear any phasing? you shouldn't, i don't when i do it here in my studio. OK, now enable the send for itself on the return you put the compressor on and turn it up creating a feedback loop. Now you will clearly hear the 30ms delay not being compensated because it would be impossible for the program to do so in the feedback path.


now in the scenario i describe above, if you automate the compressor effect on the send, that automation will be 30ms off. And, yes, if you put a tempo based effect after the compressors it's tempo information will be 30ms off. Those situations are far from ideal, but aren't what you're describing when you say, "my kick is a tiny bit off sync." that's a whole other can of worms, and if you're experiencing that, you are experiencing a serious bug beyond the admitted behavior of live's PDC.

ok, back to my morning coffee and critter care and then to make some music with live!

.lm.

[henygma18]

does anybody know if ableton 9 will support hyper threading

[ze2be]

ze2be:

see, you sound like a rational person. And i can feel your pain. What you're describing though, are bugs beyond the scope of just the problem with the current behavior of live's PDC. If you have audio elements going out of time, that is a serious bug. Automation won't affect where the audio is coming in, only where the parameter change caused by the automation is coming in. Also, the tempo based effects issue is just for that effects relation to the clock. If you experience snares or kicks moving around in time, that is a serious problem that i haven't experienced and that is beyond what the acknowledged shortcomings of how live works.


The audio side of lives compensation works perfect in most situations. i use multiple instances of parallel compression on multiple returns for different groups in pretty much every track i write. This has never resulted in any timing problems for me. Where it won't compensate on returns, is in feedback path, which you can check for yourself very quickly. --->put 3 compressors on a return track set the threshold super high, turn off makeup, make the ratio 1:1 so they aren't really doing anything to the signal and you can hear the transients clearly as they are unaffected. turn the lookahead all the way up to 10ms on all three. now send audio from a track to that return. Do you hear any phasing? you shouldn't, i don't when i do it here in my studio. OK, now enable the send for itself on the return you put the compressor on and turn it up creating a feedback loop. Now you will clearly hear the 30ms delay not being compensated because it would be impossible for the program to do so in the feedback path.


now in the scenario i describe above, if you automate the compressor effect on the send, that automation will be 30ms off. And, yes, if you put a tempo based effect after the compressors it's tempo information will be 30ms off. Those situations are far from ideal, but aren't what you're describing when you say, "my kick is a tiny bit off sync." that's a whole other can of worms, and if you're experiencing that, you are experiencing a serious bug beyond the admitted behavior of live's PDC.

ok, back to my morning coffee and critter care and then to make some music with live!

.lm.

Yeah, guess I know about all that already. Btw I didnt mean unstable timing, I just meant to say that if the snare is 5ms off, and hats are 11ms off, and sends are 7ms off, and it keeps on going like this when you add stuf, the sum off the transients hitting at the same time sounds increasinly muddy as you add stuf.

I need to test each situation proparly to say exact where it happens. I know about the send feedback. But I get it also on sends with racks filled with pararel chains. And some 3rd party plugs here and there.

Ps. Sorry for shallow repply, im at my "day job" on iphone Ill be back with more tests after cristmas.