LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Akshara
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Akshara » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:30 pm

massenmedium wrote:But "serious problem" is relative and I think partly to do with attitudes to creation and tools. Maybe it's "serious" compared to not being able to find matching socks.
Akshara wrote:if it does, then it's a deal breaker, and you should invest in the right tool for the right job. It's really as simple as that.
Or use what you have access to for it's strengths. But yeah - of course if you really absolutely have to have certain kinds of effects in your track and you find you can't get that then use something else. Durr.

It's always been like that - if you think those kinds of timing errors are something to contend with you've probably never used a hardware MIDI rig. You work with it, work it. Delays and latency are everywhere in sound, digital or not.
I hear what you're saying, and appreciate the idea, if not the tone.

For me, it is a genuine problem to contend with, and has cost me time and money, on my own projects and with clients, which is a much more serious problem than with matching socks. I ran a midi hardware rig back in the 90s, out live and in the studio, along with outboard effects, patch bays and elaborate word clock chains, and tape reels synced with hard disk recorders and ADATs. I know what it takes.

Rank 1's Airwave is filled with timing drift, and that is still a classic track. Yet the genre has evolved, become far more complex, and what worked all those years ago isn't always applicable anymore, especially when a client wants a certain sound. What we are talking about is a modern problem created by a unique application of modern tools, which didn't exist a decade ago.

Some artists and producers rely on tempo synced effects and automation throughout their production process, as a key element to their sound design and composition, across dozens of tracks. Jimi Hendrix wouldn't have created a generation defining sound with an acoustic guitar, his sound and creativity relied on the processing - while he played the guitar, not in post-production afterwards.

If Ableton can't handle the job, then fine. But don't make it out that it's a problem with one's attitude toward creation.

If my Yamaha 02R console drifted the automation by 1/128 beat intervals when inserting an auto pan or a delay, Yamaha would say that it was broken and to send it in for repair, not to change my attitude. They certainly wouldn't suggest that consoles twenty years older didn't offer built in effects at all and people were able to mix just fine.

I'm just not a fan of the luddite position. We should strive toward progress and excellence, both in our work and in our tools.


*Edited for clarity and focus
Last edited by Akshara on Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:33 pm

ze2be wrote:We are talking about up to a quarter note off beat here
how did it end up like that?

you're producing a track then one day you wake up and it's all jacked up? you didn't notice when it was a 16th note off and then an 8th note off? hwo could you let the automation get set totally out of whack? did you do all your automation with the speakers off?

Live might work without PDC but you're the one making these decisions. a quarter note?

curious.
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sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:09 pm

Akshara wrote: I hear what you're saying, and appreciate the idea, if not the tone.

For me, it is a genuine problem to contend with, and has cost me time and money, on my own projects and with clients, which is a much more serious problem than with matching socks. I ran a midi hardware rig back in the 90s, out live and in the studio, along with outboard effects, patch bays and elaborate word clock chains, and tape reels synced with hard disk recorders and ADATs. I know what it takes.

Rank 1's Airwave is filled with timing drift, and that is still a classic track. Yet the genre has evolved, become far more complex, and what worked all those years ago isn't always applicable anymore, especially when a client wants a certain sound. What we are talking about is a modern problem created by a unique application of modern tools, which didn't exist a decade ago.

Some artists and producers rely on tempo synced effects and automation throughout their production process, as a key element to their sound design and composition, across dozens of tracks. Jimi Hendrix wouldn't have created a generation defining sound with an acoustic guitar, his sound and creativity relied on the processing - while he played the guitar, not in post-production afterwards.

If Ableton can't handle the job, then fine. But don't make it out that it's a problem with one's attitude toward creation.

I'm just not a fan of the luddite position. We should strive toward progress and excellence, both in our work and in our tools.
This. couldn't agree more, I cannot stand the arguments against this problem, as if it only for a chosen few, and the people doubting it are embarassing themselves, they clearly don't understand how serious a problem it is.

agent314
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by agent314 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:07 pm

What's funny is that akshara and other posters are making pretty much exactly the same point, but his is reasonable, well articlated, and makes me agree that it's a serious issue with non-negligible real-world implications,
whereas the others make me inclined to dismiss the issue as being belligerent ranting from a bunch of grumps

Presentation goes a long way I guess

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:10 pm

agent314 wrote:What's funny is that akshara and other posters are making pretty much exactly the same point, but his is reasonable, well articlated, and makes me agree that it's a serious issue with non-negligible real-world implications,
whereas the others make me inclined to dismiss the issue as being belligerent ranting from a bunch of grumps

Presentation goes a long way I guess
Reality and facts go even further. Dismissing grumps? that's super scientific that one.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:12 pm

agent314 wrote:What's funny is that akshara and other posters are making pretty much exactly the same point, but his is reasonable, well articlated, and makes me agree that it's a serious issue with non-negligible real-world implications,
whereas the others make me inclined to dismiss the issue as being belligerent ranting from a bunch of grumps

Presentation goes a long way I guess

This is how you feel and you started that poll???? you're absurd. You don't even care about the facts.

agent314
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by agent314 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:41 pm

LOL at the fact that you thought I was talking about you

Also, the poll is out of honest curiosity.

I'm honestly sympathetic towards people whose workflows are compromised by limitations of the tools they choose to use. I know that feel well.
But when those people lash out and get cantankerous and dismiss anyone who doesn't have their same issues as amateurs, well, I am suddenly way less sympathetic to their plight.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:41 pm

agent314 wrote:LOL at the fact that you thought I was talking about you

Also, the poll is out of honest curiosity.

I'm honestly sympathetic towards people whose workflows are compromised by limitations of the tools they choose to use. I know that feel well.
But when those people lash out and get cantankerous and dismiss anyone who doesn't have their same issues as amateurs, well, I am suddenly way less sympathetic to their plight.
Actually I didn't think you were talking about me, if I did I would've said as much, but I do want to make it clear that I am on their side, the side that is in direct opposition to people like you... you're one of the 'everything is fine' brigade who seeks to defend Ableton no matter what. It is clear to me from your posts and the wording/questions on your poll that you did not fully understand the problem before you started dismissing it. If your poll was out of honest curiosity, then why didn't you first try to get to the bottom of the problem before asking people if it affected them? I do not believe your stance was coming from a position of honest curiosity, you were out to dismiss it from the get go ... you've already said that you're only listening to non 'grumpy' people.. and I also sense you've been backpedaling as you learn more about the issues... I know this just by your phrasing.. you shouldn't have even started that poll with the position you're are in. You are part of the problem, please be part of the solution.

Lets get something straight, I find this PDC issue to be indefensible, you can try and defend Ableton all day long, but I will take you up on every single argument, don't be surprised if people like me object to you, we don't need more people defending Ableton... if Live9 doesn't have PDC on automation, then Ableton is a JOKE, and have been wasting loyal followers time for years and years, it's a travesty and an insult to us all.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:54 pm

The only thing Ableton gave a damn about was their new controller so they could make bigger margins - same with Live8 and the APC... without core improvements, Live9 is pathetic, session automation should've been there all along and won't even work well without proper PDC, the browser is rudimentary/also should've been improved a long time ago. Midi editing features, super basic. New sounds and FX??? yawn, what a disgrace. The same app with one fixed feature (not a new feature) and more bloat on top. 3 years and to top it off this company thinks so little of us that we don't deserve any communication or dialog??? what kind of delusion is this? the dream/fantasy is over. wake up.

I'm a programmer myself, I run a software company and I could've rewritten Live on my own in 3 years. W.T.F.!

You know whats messed up too, I just assumed PDC was fixed and that would make this a great update because all the other features would work properly then, but the lack of core improvements just makes these new features look ridiculous.

I'm going to make sure this issue is at least addressed in publications when Live9 goes out for review, that should be easy enough.

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:57 am

Tone Deft wrote:
ze2be wrote:We are talking about up to a quarter note off beat here
how did it end up like that?

you're producing a track then one day you wake up and it's all jacked up? you didn't notice when it was a 16th note off and then an 8th note off? hwo could you let the automation get set totally out of whack? did you do all your automation with the speakers off?

Live might work without PDC but you're the one making these decisions. a quarter note?

curious.
Someone else measured it recently and posted it on one of these threads. I dont personally get as much as a full quarter note. Of the few projects that do get bad timing, they usually start out just fine. Like the first 20 saves or so. A few months out, a pile of saves, and tons of automation and so called "complex" racking later it all falls apart. But its not a sudden thing. It builds up very slow. Othervice I would have noticed it much sooner in the process. Im just loving the program to pieces, what can I say. If it is cool, possible and logical, I will try it.

Ive spent hours tonight trimming my template to get these variable latencies down. But I did not know all this when I started using racks, chaining, automation and all that all over the place. For what it said it could do in the manual. It didnt say anything about slowly increased latency as you build.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:10 am

sdfak1234 wrote:The only thing Ableton gave a damn about was their new controller so they could make bigger margins - same with Live8 and the APC... without core improvements, Live9 is pathetic, session automation should've been there all along and won't even work well without proper PDC, the browser is rudimentary/also should've been improved a long time ago. Midi editing features, super basic. New sounds and FX??? yawn, what a disgrace. The same app with one fixed feature (not a new feature) and more bloat on top. 3 years and to top it off this company thinks so little of us that we don't deserve any communication or dialog??? what kind of delusion is this? the dream/fantasy is over. wake up.

I'm a programmer myself, I run a software company and I could've rewritten Live on my own in 3 years. W.T.F.!

You know whats messed up too, I just assumed PDC was fixed and that would make this a great update because all the other features would work properly then, but the lack of core improvements just makes these new features look ridiculous.

I'm going to make sure this issue is at least addressed in publications when Live9 goes out for review, that should be easy enough.

i get your PDC rant, i do, but Ableton haven't been working on Live 9 for 3 years have they? they publicly announced that they would be putting all their resources into resolving issues with Live 8 less than 3 years ago. since then they even went on to make 64 bit Live 8 a potential .x revision. i think most DAW makers would have saved that for the next version.. in this case Live 9. so in that regard they [re]earned some respect points in my book. i would even go so far as to say that if the PDC issue was something that was an easy fix... they'd have done that in one of the revisions of Live 8. you seem like an intelligent person. i think you are letting your frustration color your judgement a little. remember, some of the posters may be defending Ableton, but they don't work for Ableton... so their excuses for things are not necessarily the excuses of Ableton or it's staff. there are often very logical reasons for things we don't understand...

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:18 am

sdfak1234 wrote: if Live9 doesn't have PDC on automation, then Ableton is a JOKE, and have been wasting loyal followers time for years and years, it's a travesty and an insult to us all.
Look, if you want to make people listen to you, I would humbly suggest you to cool down and change your tone a bit. And your personal anger does not speak from us all, even though some of us agree that pdc can be troublesome in certain situations.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:25 am

H20nly wrote: i get your PDC rant, i do, but Ableton haven't been working on Live 9 for 3 years have they? they publicly announced that they would be putting all their resources into resolving issues with Live 8 less than 3 years ago. since then they even went on to make 64 bit Live 8 a potential .x revision. i think most DAW makers would have saved that for the next version.. in this case Live 9. so in that regard they [re]earned some respect points in my book. i would even go so far as to say that if the PDC issue was something that was an easy fix... they'd have done that in one of the revisions of Live 8. you seem like an intelligent person. i think you are letting your frustration color your judgement a little. remember, some of the posters may be defending Ableton, but they don't work for Ableton... so their excuses for things are not necessarily the excuses of Ableton or it's staff. there are often very logical reasons for things we don't understand...
Yeah you are right... My frustrations kind of drag all the way back to Live 6 really, I mean Live 8 was a huge disappointment for me, so the fact they released that in the state that it was and continued that for some time, this just feels like a continuation of that, waiting for completeness rather than new features.. I feel it's been too long and my frustrated rants are pretty desperate because it's just properly dawning on me that realistically I cannot continue to use Live for the kind of work that I'm doing, it's pretty crushing this time and development is moving so slowly that I don't feel I can invest in Ableton going forward. Shame.

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:27 am

H20nly wrote:Ableton haven't been working on Live 9 for 3 years have they? they publicly announced that they would be putting all their resources into resolving issues with Live 8 less than 3 years ago. since then they even went on to make 64 bit Live 8 a potential .x revision. i think most DAW makers would have saved that for the next version.. in this case Live 9. so in that regard they [re]earned some respect points in my book. i would even go so far as to say that if the PDC issue was something that was an easy fix... they'd have done that in one of the revisions of Live 8. you seem like an intelligent person. i think you are letting your frustration color your judgement a little. remember, some of the posters may be defending Ableton, but they don't work for Ableton... so their excuses for things are not necessarily the excuses of Ableton or it's staff. there are often very logical reasons for things we don't understand...
Good point. I remember they said publically that doing 64 bit was a huge task, in the early live 8 days. It likely took a good chunk of those 3 years that went buy. And live 8 owners even gets it for free without upgrading. How cool is that?

Edit: you guys are fast!

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:32 am

ze2be wrote:
sdfak1234 wrote: if Live9 doesn't have PDC on automation, then Ableton is a JOKE, and have been wasting loyal followers time for years and years, it's a travesty and an insult to us all.
Look, if you want to make people listen to you, I would humbly suggest you to cool down and change your tone a bit. And your personal anger does not speak from us all, even though some of us agree that pdc can be troublesome in certain situations.
Look ze2be, I don't think anyone is actually listening to this...and I certainly don't want to make people listen to me.. I've already explained why I personally think you be should be angry, nobody is forcing you to listen. I will however respond to comments and arguments made, please don't take my arguments as personal flames.. Lets face it, Ableton have even removed links to the forum, they don't discuss any issues openly, I don't feel it makes much difference what people write on here... but for what it's worth, I'm not going to be posting much more on this, there is no real dialog with Ableton here, and I think the ins and outs of the various issues of have been discussed at length.

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