LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:33 am

sdfak1234 wrote:My frustrations kind of drag all the way back to Live 6 really, I mean Live 8 was a huge disappointment for me, so the fact they released that in the state that it was and continued that for some time, this just feels like a continuation of that, waiting for completeness rather than new features.. I feel it's been too long and my frustrated rants are pretty desperate because it's just properly dawning on me that realistically I cannot continue to use Live for the kind of work that I'm doing, it's pretty crushing this time and development is moving so slowly that I don't feel I can invest in Ableton going forward. Shame.
Well if you want a good advice, I would stay away from Bitwig before it reaches version 3 or 4 at least, if I was you. Arround version 2 or 3 I would try their demo and start hanging out on their forums. Deja vu? :D :wink:
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H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:50 am

sdfak1234 wrote:
H20nly wrote: i get your PDC rant, i do, but Ableton haven't been working on Live 9 for 3 years have they? they publicly announced that they would be putting all their resources into resolving issues with Live 8 less than 3 years ago. since then they even went on to make 64 bit Live 8 a potential .x revision. i think most DAW makers would have saved that for the next version.. in this case Live 9. so in that regard they [re]earned some respect points in my book. i would even go so far as to say that if the PDC issue was something that was an easy fix... they'd have done that in one of the revisions of Live 8. you seem like an intelligent person. i think you are letting your frustration color your judgement a little. remember, some of the posters may be defending Ableton, but they don't work for Ableton... so their excuses for things are not necessarily the excuses of Ableton or it's staff. there are often very logical reasons for things we don't understand...
Yeah you are right... My frustrations kind of drag all the way back to Live 6 really, I mean Live 8 was a huge disappointment for me, so the fact they released that in the state that it was and continued that for some time, this just feels like a continuation of that, waiting for completeness rather than new features.. I feel it's been too long and my frustrated rants are pretty desperate because it's just properly dawning on me that realistically I cannot continue to use Live for the kind of work that I'm doing, it's pretty crushing this time and development is moving so slowly that I don't feel I can invest in Ableton going forward. Shame.
it is a shame, but maybe if you sit tight and keep your credit card in your wallet you'll get what you want soon... you've been around long enough not to buy Live 9 on day one right? oh there will be moaning. meanwhile i'll be eating popcorn going nom nom early nom adopters nom L nom O nom L. eventually, after reading enough of it i'm sure the temptation to take a piss or two on it will tempt me into posting... well, lets just say... a few random things that pop in my head, but as bad ass as spectrum looks behind EQ8 to me and as excited i am to try the new compressor among other things... i won't be buying it for at least the first month or so...

i think that the amount of things that a DAW can do requires more and more... the more hardware the computer component manufacturers, the interface market and the MIDI controller lot release the harder this has to get for everybody. this is one of those areas where i see Apple get a leg up from their walled garden of 1 computer with different specs and form factors vs. the onslaught from here to Taiwan that Mircosoft have to tackle. but where i'm going with that is that all the DAW crews at Steinberg, Avid, etc, etc. have to make sure their code is optimized to. hellova task. i don't envy them... but i do pay them loads of money and like you, i want my shit to work.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:52 am

ze2be wrote:Well if you want a good advice, I would stay away from Bitwig before it reaches version 3 or 4 at least, if I was you. Arround version 2 or 3 I would try their demo and start hanging out on their forums. Deja vu? :D :wink:
Well that probably is good advice, BUT if I had to go out on a limb I actually think Bitwig will catch up much faster, obviously I need to see version 1 to even consider it, but because it was built more recently and therefore designed from the ground up to address modern issues, I'm actually starting to think Bitwig will replace Ableton in the future, it's all part of the software development cycle, which happens over and over again. Very familiar with it. This is why people expected a Live rewrite BTW. Bitwig or last minute Ableton miracle on PDC are kinda my last hopes... but I actually think it's gonna be a break from music altogether, I kinda need to focus on my software work anyway, pays much more to focus on work rather than art, not as good for the mind though.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:52 am

ze2be wrote:Well if you want a good advice, I would stay away from Bitwig before it reaches version 3 or 4 at least, if I was you. Arround version 2 or 3 I would try their demo and start hanging out on their forums. Deja vu? :D :wink:
i'll takuh the good advice. ze2be you're glowing right now. i can see the wisdom's effects all the way in California.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:54 am

sdfak1234 wrote:The only thing Ableton gave a damn about was their new controller so they could make bigger margins - same with Live8 and the APC... without core improvements, Live9 is pathetic, session automation should've been there all along and won't even work well without proper PDC, the browser is rudimentary/also should've been improved a long time ago. Midi editing features, super basic. New sounds and FX??? yawn, what a disgrace. The same app with one fixed feature (not a new feature) and more bloat on top. 3 years and to top it off this company thinks so little of us that we don't deserve any communication or dialog??? what kind of delusion is this? the dream/fantasy is over. wake up.

I'm a programmer myself, I run a software company and I could've rewritten Live on my own in 3 years. W.T.F.!

You know whats messed up too, I just assumed PDC was fixed and that would make this a great update because all the other features would work properly then, but the lack of core improvements just makes these new features look ridiculous.

I'm going to make sure this issue is at least addressed in publications when Live9 goes out for review, that should be easy enough.
So true !!!
In all points...

A friend of mine who programs well known VST-plugins told me two years ago
that Live 8 is a known mess of a code, and that a lot developers hate it.
We'll see if that changed, but I really am very skeptic.

In the end one can do only what he's able to do, and if one can't he can't...
...adding a new controller to cover the old deeper problems is a working tactic,
...as much as I see on the forum here.
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:07 am

H20nly wrote:i'll takuh the good advice. ze2be you're glowing right now. i can see the wisdom's effects all the way in California.
Haha, glad I could help! North europe is cold and dark right now, raining and snowing. Wish I was there in sunny cali. I make a sun inside! Put fire to TV, duh. :P
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sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:11 am

I know I'm dragging this out horribly, but one more thing about the controller.. we read a response a while back saying that Ableton chose to focus on the most requested features, I don't remember people desperately wanting something like push, people seemed pretty happy with the APC and/or launchpad, ipad etc. I personally think it looks fantastic, but that was not a heavily requested thing, I know it's an Akai thing, but by the looks of it, it's a heavily integrated product.... I can't help but think they could've worked on core features, I got that impression when they effectively apologized for Live 8...
H2Only wrote:i think that the amount of things that a DAW can do requires more and more... the more hardware the computer component manufacturers, the interface market and the MIDI controller lot release the harder this has to get for everybody. this is one of those areas where i see Apple get a leg up from their walled garden of 1 computer with different specs and form factors vs. the onslaught from here to Taiwan that Mircosoft have to tackle. but where i'm going with that is that all the DAW crews at Steinberg, Avid, etc, etc. have to make sure their code is optimized to. hellova task. i don't envy them... but i do pay them loads of money and like you, i want my shit to work.
I only partially agree with this, I'm pretty up on software development actually and it actually increases my frustration with music software developers, in particular with Steinberg who have basically created a monopoly on standards, very poor ones and then the music business side of it which tries to get as much money as it can.. you know the fact that Live was difficult to port to 64bit shows just how behind they were with the software frameworks, obviously they're having trouble porting their old and/or clunky code... I think it's got something to do with music software engineers being slightly different, good mathematics but forces that don't dictate things in a logical manner. The music industry is not the same as the computer industry, if it were we'd have much more efficient stuff. Ableton could be much more optimized than it is (with Live 8 ), I am pretty certain of this, it's not as optimized as Cubase, by a very long shot, and the Live dual buffer thing is not the reason why. Overall though, with so many resources at their disposal I just don't understand why Live isn't a lot better than it is...
Last edited by sdfak1234 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:15 am

Dude, I didnt write that ^^ H2Only did :wink:
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sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:16 am

ze2be wrote:Dude, I didnt write that ^^ H2Only did :wink:
sorry dude, don't know what happened there, I'll fix that :).

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:24 am

^ hey that's my quote!

i won't claim to know the code behind Live, but i do know that ableton was doing some cool and very innovative shit before other companies... encompassed.. those ideas. Push was probably something that was cooked up with Akai quite some time ago and i'm sure they have put a resource or two behind that. then there is stubbornness behind certain music industry decisions. i don't know about your music, but when my [computer aided type] dreams began... bad ass processors that i could never afford were clocking around 800 Mhz. MIDI has been around how long? so game changing and staying the same have been butting heads in this industry for the last decade or so... hard. 15 years ago shit wasn't even fathomable that comes with Audacity today. 8O

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:29 am

sdfak1234 wrote:I only partially agree with this, I'm pretty up on software development actually and it actually increases my frustration with music software developers, in particular with Steinberg who have basically created a monopoly on standards, very poor ones and then the music business side of it which tries to get as much money as it can.. you know the fact that Live was difficult to port to 64bit shows just how behind they were with the software frameworks, obviously they're having trouble porting their old and/or clunky code... I think it's got something to do with music software engineers being slightly different, good mathematics but forces that don't dictate things in a logical manner. The music industry is not the same as the computer industry, if it were we'd have much more efficient stuff. Ableton could be much more optimized than it is (with Live 8 ), I am pretty certain of this, it's not as optimized as Cubase, by a very long shot, and the Live dual buffer thing is not the reason why. Overall though, with so many resources at their disposal I just don't understand why Live isn't a lot better than it is...
you might have it there. Old "clunky" code may very well be the reason. I remember they once said they needed to do a complete rewrite to get session automation done. Maybe they didnt make it in time due to all the Live 8 bug fixings after the release, and made sort of a workaround code for now. Its only speculations, but it does seem logical that they would rewrite the code for live 10. Especially if what you have herd is true. It sounds logical. Cubase did the same thing. Ive used cubase since 1990. SX was a complete rewrite. Cubase VST was a mess in the end.
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H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:31 am

ze2be wrote:Cubase VST
my first big kid DAW. :P

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:34 am

H20nly wrote:^ hey that's my quote!

i won't claim to know the code behind Live, but i do know that ableton was doing some cool and very innovative shit before other companies... encompassed.. those ideas. Push was probably something that was cooked up with Akai quite some time ago and i'm sure they have put a resource or two behind that. then there is stubbornness behind certain music industry decisions. i don't know about your music, but when my [computer aided type] dreams began... bad ass processors that i could never afford were clocking around 800 Mhz. MIDI has been around how long? so game changing and staying the same have been butting heads in this industry for the last decade or so... hard. 15 years ago shit wasn't even fathomable that comes with Audacity today. 8O
I have similar memories, I've been doing computer music for almost 20 years actually and yeah, similar things happened in the past, I have enjoyed software more in the past but of course we're so much more advanced and complex now, it gets out of control, but my personal feeling is still that software design decisions have been comprised heavily by business, of course I do have a fear that workflow demands will always outstrip supply and another fear that is that software complexity will get out of control, but I've been writing code for 15 years and we always reconstruct when things get too hard to handle.

I mean it's evolution, bigger faster stronger harder and it's brutal, but thats where I'm at.
Last edited by sdfak1234 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:38 am

:( Ableton's time?

well, here's a prediction for you... Live 10 will be fucking bad ass!

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:39 am

H20nly wrote:
ze2be wrote:Cubase VST
my first big kid DAW. :P
I remember my cpu melted down from using one track only, with a rediculous Steniberg slap bass vst synth. Lol! Must be one of the first vsts. :D

Actually I am so spoiled with tools now, far beyond my wildest dreams back then. And I used to be a dreamer.
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