LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
nathannn
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by nathannn » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:12 pm

if you rewire live into pro tools will this issue go away?
and i know pro tools used to have a plug in for its own pdc.. isn't there one that will work in live?
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sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:19 pm

nathannn wrote:if you rewire live into pro tools will this issue go away?
and i know pro tools used to have a plug in for its own pdc.. isn't there one that will work in live?
Not at all, and I kinda don't know where to begin answering this one. Sorry, it's quite off the mark.

Luke J Warren (Dj/Producer)
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Luke J Warren (Dj/Producer) » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:01 am

sdfak1234 wrote:
Luke J Warren (Dj/Producer) wrote:So have any of you guys banging on about the PDC being broken in Live 9 actually used the Live 9 beta to confirm the issue still exists ? It seems rather stupid to be getting so perplexed by an issue which may or may not exist in the latest update ?
Yes. it happened quite far back in the thread, that's why we're 'banging on' about it.
My apologies then, I must no have have dug far enough back through the thread... It's a big one ;-)

Angstrom
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Angstrom » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:07 am

Compensated automation : not fixed

Devices with oversampling causing 1 samplebuffer length issue : fixed

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:55 am

petit nuage wrote:@tone deft : sooo creative and funny ..as always :roll:

(that's sad...)


take care bro you seems tired :wink: ...

i love live and its my only daw and i want to buy live 9 because it seems exiting but without a solid pdc ....much less
but i hope when i see its new automation features...otherwise it will be absurd ?!!
pretty tired, it was early.

I don't know if they'll fix it, it seems that it was a design decision from the getgo for lower latency.

if/when they do fix it should be noted that you were the one that started all the fuss. ;) they did 64 bit summing to be more feature complete with other DAWs, maybe PDC will follow suit.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:51 am

@tonedeft :a fuss ?!pfff...noo a RIIOOT!!!! :roll: ...
yeah fingers crossed..but WHEN ? :twisted:

@angstrom : good news for the oversampling's issue...
i would like to know if people (maybe you) have tested with several 3rd party plugs ...and with different oversampling modes (x2,x4 ..) ?
Last edited by petit nuage on Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Angstrom
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Angstrom » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:18 am

petit nuage wrote: @angstrom : good news for the oversampling's issue...
have you tested several plugs, 3rd parties...and with different oversampling (x2,x4 etc..) ?
the oversampling issue was one which affected only Ableton devices and was one of the various conflated issues relating to delay calculations, it is not related to the offsetting of automation.

The issue in question is described here.
viewtopic.php?p=1300766#p1300766

I believe the main place users would hear it was when an EQ8 with oversampling was used in a rack chain in parallel to a dry chain processing the same content. It's most likely all covered in that linked thread anyway.
That particular issue is resolved. Oversampling in EQ8 has been greatly improved.

BTW: I am no kind of authority, and anything I say should be treated with the same disdain you would treat anything on the internet.

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:29 am

ah ok thanks !
but just to clarify something .. all the oversampled plugs in general, 3rd party included, were concerned by this issue no ?

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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Angstrom » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:52 am

um, perhaps I should moderate my exuberance.
I can state confidently that the EQ8 oversampling now does not exhibit this problem.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:59 am

Tone Deft wrote: I don't know if they'll fix it, it seems that it was a design decision from the getgo for lower latency.

if/when they do fix it should be noted that you were the one that started all the fuss. ;) they did 64 bit summing to be more feature complete with other DAWs, maybe PDC will follow suit.
I do not believe the PDC automation issue has anything to do with trade-offs, there has been some debate about this live vs producer modes thing, but I don't believe that is necessary, I don't think they haven't made a decision to choose something over PDC automation, they simply haven't completed their automation feature to correct its timing.. I'm sure there are some issues to adding this feature, but I don't think it's a big a problem as people have made out, it was probably an oversight from the original Live code and as such it's been hard to fix, but again, they should've rewritten, and again, I'd like to hear their explanation/excuse. I think was low priority because it was low profile, that's the major issue with the problem, the profile/awareness of this issue does not match the gravity and seriousness of the problem, it should be super high profile, in many ways this should've been addressed before session view automation, session view is a big feature, but it's built on bad foundations.

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:08 am

...and we asked why the hid the forums from the general public?

until the next PDC thread, stay thirsty my friend.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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TTOZ
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by TTOZ » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:30 am

sdfak1234 wrote:The only thing Ableton gave a damn about was their new controller so they could make bigger margins - same with Live8 and the APC... without core improvements, Live9 is pathetic, session automation should've been there all along and won't even work well without proper PDC, the browser is rudimentary/also should've been improved a long time ago. Midi editing features, super basic. New sounds and FX??? yawn, what a disgrace. The same app with one fixed feature (not a new feature) and more bloat on top. 3 years and to top it off this company thinks so little of us that we don't deserve any communication or dialog??? what kind of delusion is this? the dream/fantasy is over. wake up.

I'm a programmer myself, I run a software company and I could've rewritten Live on my own in 3 years. W.T.F.!

You know whats messed up too, I just assumed PDC was fixed and that would make this a great update because all the other features would work properly then, but the lack of core improvements just makes these new features look ridiculous.

I'm going to make sure this issue is at least addressed in publications when Live9 goes out for review, that should be easy enough.
Please do.. get the press to put pressure on them.. it might help.. I'll back you up in any way
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TTOZ
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by TTOZ » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:45 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Brian Badonde wrote:My belief is that they know the problem with PDC cannot be fixed without a substantial rewrite or ground up rewrite.
if you read the Henke post you'll see that he mentions a tradeoff between delaying the audio which creates latency and making Live as low latency as possible. this has spurred ideas of a live mode and a production mode, which has been brought up for other use cases. the DJs want one thing while the producers want another.

a problem of trying to be too many things to too many people? can't please everyone all the time.

I imagine this is where the ka-ching that Pro Tools costs comes into play. they have more money and can spend more time writing more efficient code.
You are not making any sense at all. If pdc is implemented *audibly* as it is now, then it already affects the low latency immediately.

Henke is talking a load of rubbish there if that's really what he said.

In fact, live is the worst of the LOT, of ANY audio software in this regard, cause it delays the audio of the entire track no matter where you have a latent plugin, even if it's not in the direct signal path of the track you are currently working with.

I don't think the creator himself knows what he is talking about in this instance then, it's that simple.
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RD444
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:12 am

Luke J Warren (Dj/Producer) wrote:So have any of you guys banging on about the PDC being broken in Live 9 actually used the Live 9 beta to confirm the issue still exists ? It seems rather stupid to be getting so perplexed by an issue which may or may not exist in the latest update ?
RD444 wrote:
CooCooCaCha wrote:I just got Live 9 and unfortunately found out that the PDC ISSUES ARE NOT FIXED.

Image

As you can see in the image above I loaded a kickdrum into simpler with the following effects chain:
Simpler > Pro-Q > Pro-C > VolumeShaper

As you can see the kick is delayed in VolumeShaper because Live is not compensating for the delay caused by Pro-Q and Pro-C and the kickdrum will shift back and forth in VolumeShaper if I add or remove plugins in the fx chain.

I am incredibly disappointed Ableton. Seriously, wtf.

I cant contain my disappointment of Ableton.

THEY SUCK

its FASCIST Steinberg all over again.

(except Steinberg fixed PDC in 2003)
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

jtdj
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by jtdj » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:27 am

ableton are ten years behind their competitors, it's an absolute disgrace. what have they been doing for 3 years? for this to be the new version after 3 years is nothing short of embarrassing for the company and a kick in the teeth to their customers. pdc not being fixed after 3 years of development is shocking in the highest regard, they must have took a very big holiday after version 8.

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