LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
broc
Posts: 1151
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by broc » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:14 pm

TTOZ wrote: In fact, live is the worst of the LOT, of ANY audio software in this regard, cause it delays the audio of the entire track no matter where you have a latent plugin, even if it's not in the direct signal path of the track you are currently working with.
Not sure what you mean.
I would think if you have a latent plugin somewhere in the signal path everything else must be delayed accordingly.

petit nuage
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:31 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:40 pm

@sdfak1234 :totally agree with you !

and im afraid that a strict division of live between producer and dj/live side could kill the live revolutionary concept based on this particular interaction between the two sides.
and its what i (we) love about live . so this division should be very well thinked...

if a rewritten is too complex and long and a strict division between live/producer modes could break the concept of live ...
remains few months before 1st quarter of 2013 so i ask myself , what solution ableton could find to solve this issue in a short amount of time ? or maybe its enough to rewrite or improve something ?


seriously how many years we have to wait to have this fondamental issue to be solved ?
if this issue was better known, everybody would ask that to be fixed !

i would like to hear ableton on that ...their politic and strategy for the future of live (about a major rewriting etc..).
on the theme : if i buy live 9 could i expect in a update after the release , the pdc finally improved ? or should i have to wait for live 10 ?

if ableton tells me : we will give a free live 9.2 update with pdc improved soon as possible after the live 9 release...im already more interested ! :D
so, discussion and debate are always good to enlight things .

so wait and see...

TTOZ
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:05 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by TTOZ » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:25 pm

broc wrote:
TTOZ wrote: In fact, live is the worst of the LOT, of ANY audio software in this regard, cause it delays the audio of the entire track no matter where you have a latent plugin, even if it's not in the direct signal path of the track you are currently working with.
Not sure what you mean.
I would think if you have a latent plugin somewhere in the signal path everything else must be delayed accordingly.
no in mosts hosts i have used, i can have a linear delay EQ active on let's say track A, with 700ms latency, and still play a softsynth on Track B with the normal audio latency setting.

Track B would only get affected if there was that linear phase EQ in it's exact signal path.

I have defended Ableton against Bitwig vigilantly, but i would almost make a bet that Bitwig will not release their product with such a glaring problem.

In fact, i was certain, i had honestly convinced myself, that the reason live 9 took so long to even get a glimpse of was BECAUSE they were fixing fundamental engine problems like the PDC.
I am bitwig, pick me, pick me, i now hAs midi export!

broc
Posts: 1151
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by broc » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:02 pm

TTOZ wrote:
broc wrote:
TTOZ wrote: In fact, live is the worst of the LOT, of ANY audio software in this regard, cause it delays the audio of the entire track no matter where you have a latent plugin, even if it's not in the direct signal path of the track you are currently working with.
Not sure what you mean.
I would think if you have a latent plugin somewhere in the signal path everything else must be delayed accordingly.
no in mosts hosts i have used, i can have a linear delay EQ active on let's say track A, with 700ms latency, and still play a softsynth on Track B with the normal audio latency setting.

Track B would only get affected if there was that linear phase EQ in it's exact signal path.
Doesn't Live provide something like that with the option 'Reduced Latency when Monitoring' ?

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:42 pm

petit nuage wrote:@sdfak1234 :totally agree with you !

and im afraid that a strict division of live between producer and dj/live side could kill the live revolutionary concept based on this particular interaction between the two sides.
and its what i (we) love about live . so this division should be very well thinked...

if a rewritten is too complex and long and a strict division between live/producer modes could break the concept of live ...
remains few months before 1st quarter of 2013 so i ask myself , what solution ableton could find to solve this issue in a short amount of time ? or maybe its enough to rewrite or improve something ?


seriously how many years we have to wait to have this fondamental issue to be solved ?
if this issue was better known, everybody would ask that to be fixed !

i would like to hear ableton on that ...their politic and strategy for the future of live (about a major rewriting etc..).
on the theme : if i buy live 9 could i expect in a update after the release , the pdc finally improved ? or should i have to wait for live 10 ?

if ableton tells me : we will give a free live 9.2 update with pdc improved soon as possible after the live 9 release...im already more interested ! :D
so, discussion and debate are always good to enlight things .

so wait and see...
I want to say again as well, the fact that session view automation is included before PDC on automation is ridiculous and it's totally misleading/inappropriate for Ableton to promote that... look at this Live/Producer mode thing, remember, playing live doesn't require PDC on automation, it's for written events, I'm sure this is how this was rationalized at Ableton, they didn't need the feature because "it's for playing Live", only recordings really need it, but now they've gone and added automation on session view which means suddenly people are going to be recording automation all over the place and playing it back live, now people are going to start experiencing automation problems in the live context.... never mind all this producer mode nonsense. Now lets hear someone say "Live wasn't designed for that", actually I think it just has been by adding session view automation. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around Ableton actually releasing Live 9 with this problem, it makes no sense what so ever... and I bet it's a year before most producers start noticing, this is the game.

In regards Ableton telling up about updates, after previous broken promises and all their past comments, I wouldn't be inclined to believe them.

TTOZ
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:05 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by TTOZ » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:17 pm

broc wrote: Doesn't Live provide something like that with the option 'Reduced Latency when Monitoring' ?

broc you are not getting my point at all. In other hosts the only latency on a given track is what's in that tracks path. In live the entire project is affected, visually also.. A delay on one track will put the playhead out of sync on any track.

And what others are saying about compromises for low latency, is complete rubbish. Personally i don't know how to make it any clearer..

So i'll make it simple.. live's pdc implementation is what's rubbish, a joke, and certainly should not be present in $500+ software, and Henke's excuse for why it is that way is nothing more than that.. an excuse.. and a very poor one.
I am bitwig, pick me, pick me, i now hAs midi export!

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:21 pm

TTOZ wrote:
broc wrote: Doesn't Live provide something like that with the option 'Reduced Latency when Monitoring' ?

broc you are not getting my point at all. In other hosts the only latency on a given track is what's in that tracks path. In live the entire project is affected, visually also.. A delay on one track will put the playhead out of sync on any track.

And what others are saying about compromises for low latency, is complete rubbish. Personally i don't know how to make it any clearer..

So i'll make it simple.. live's pdc implementation is what's rubbish, a joke, and certainly should not be present in $500+ software, and Henke's excuse for why it is that way is nothing more than that.. an excuse.. and a very poor one.
I totally agree.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

beatmunga
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:20 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by beatmunga » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:30 pm

C'mon Tone Deft...

16 pages of this and us apes still don't understand the situation of why we should abandon our expensive DAW when we realise it is all out of time.

Enlighten us again!
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:34 pm

Ableton make sub-standard software.

Fact

If the standard is measured on the professional capabilities of other sequencers since 2003.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by RD444 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:42 pm

"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:08 am

16 pages but no answer from Abletons side speaks for it self...!
They could lie and look bad or say it doesn't work and look stupid.
Both not a good option for selling software.

Some peoples suggestions to leave Live and use another software hurts the selling too.
If someone would tell others to abandon my product, I would throw him out and sue him.
He has no right to do so !

Also..., I cannot see any comment from any certified Ableton butt-kisser here either,
and they are usually the first and the fastest defenders of Live.
That is because they have to defend their living strategy too.
But in this case they seem the first time do what they should do all the time.
I know you live from it and I don't trust your word anyways.

So..., PDC isn't fixed and given no word about it is proof enough.
There is no fix coming, and I think they just don't know how to fix it!
If they knew..., they would have done it !!! So simple as that !!!

Some of my friend are audio software developers(many of you have some of their software).
When I mentioned I use Live8, they told me how bad coded it is and that dev's hate it.

It should be rewritten long time ago, and there is no other option if you wanna have it fixed.
But no..., they improved it here and there to do some cosmetics,
and bring Push to be the main horse that pulls the shit wagon !
But..., that works ! ...and so many kids(and fools) eat the whole wagon... :lol: !!!

(( am I harsh...??? ) Hope I am, cause things have to be told the way they are...! ))

Ableton leaves now a expensive software(Live8) with known PDC issues
and asks for more money, for a software that has the same issue. 8O

But peopel didn't pay for a software with issues like that !!! :?

Live should have a working PDC before going on to another version.
People payed for it and should get it free !
Ableton should actually fix the PDC in Live8 or give money back !

When you buy a car and it does not what it should, you have the right to bring it back.
No car dealer tells you, "Hey give me more money and I sell you the newer model with the same default".
( O.K. some do...) :wink:

16 pages of people asking what is going on, and being ignored is a shame and not worth any more comment...

I say good bye and go now...!
I'm done with Live, Ableton and all those certified butt-kissers and hard head looser,
who have nothing else to do then being the comment kings with 20.000 posts.
I don't wanna loose more time with this shit anymore.
They are not interested and just like to sell their crap...

I'll stay with S1 and maybe see you all at Bitwig, except those idiots... !
...they'll come later... :lol:
...when this ship sinks... :!:
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

Nokatus
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:06 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Nokatus » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:59 am

simpli.cissimus wrote:16 pages but no answer from Abletons side speaks for it self...!
They could lie and look bad or say it doesn't work and look stupid.
Both not a good option for selling software.

Some peoples suggestions to leave Live and use another software hurts the selling too.
If someone would tell others to abandon my product, I would throw him out and sue him.
He has no right to do so !

Also..., I cannot see any comment from any certified Ableton butt-kisser here either,
and they are usually the first and the fastest defenders of Live.
That is because they have to defend their living strategy too.
But in this case they seem the first time do what they should do all the time.
I know you live from it and I don't trust your word anyways.

So..., PDC isn't fixed and given no word about it is proof enough.
There is no fix coming, and I think they just don't know how to fix it!
If they knew..., they would have done it !!! So simple as that !!!

Some of my friend are audio software developers(many of you have some of their software).
When I mentioned I use Live8, they told me how bad coded it is and that dev's hate it.

It should be rewritten long time ago, and there is no other option if you wanna have it fixed.
But no..., they improved it here and there to do some cosmetics,
and bring Push to be the main horse that pulls the shit wagon !
But..., that works ! ...and so many kids(and fools) eat the whole wagon... :lol: !!!

(( am I harsh...??? ) Hope I am, cause things have to be told the way they are...! ))

Ableton leaves now a expensive software(Live8) with known PDC issues
and asks for more money, for a software that has the same issue. 8O

But peopel didn't pay for a software with issues like that !!! :?

Live should have a working PDC before going on to another version.
People payed for it and should get it free !
Ableton should actually fix the PDC in Live8 or give money back !

When you buy a car and it does not what it should, you have the right to bring it back.
No car dealer tells you, "Hey give me more money and I sell you the newer model with the same default".
( O.K. some do...) :wink:

16 pages of people asking what is going on, and being ignored is a shame and not worth any more comment...

I say good bye and go now...!
I'm done with Live, Ableton and all those certified butt-kissers and hard head looser,
who have nothing else to do then being the comment kings with 20.000 posts.
I don't wanna loose more time with this shit anymore.
They are not interested and just like to sell their crap...

I'll stay with S1 and maybe see you all at Bitwig, except those idiots... !
...they'll come later... :lol:
...when this ship sinks... :!:
Oh, you're 3phase. Riiiight.

Ok, for the record: as much as I'm dissatisfied with automation not being in sync with plugin delay compensation, that's one thing, and 3phase is whole another. Issues like this should be seen in their actual proportions, how serious they ever might be - but this particular guy is on a not-so-healthy personal vendetta against Ableton, and leaps at any opportunity to add fuel to the fire when people are complaining about anything at all related to Live. On this forum and many others.

Live is my chosen environment for a good reason, and I genuinely respect the work Ableton has done in order to create such an application. I really don't like the way automation behaves in relation to PDC, but I also don't want any part in this "certified butt-kisser", "sinking ship" (and so on) nonsense.

There is the issue, and there is a way to discuss about it, expressing dissatisfaction and all, in a reasonable manner. In contrast, all this guy is doing is exploiting people's dissatisfaction, where ever he seems to find it, trying to build up exaggerated air of negativity around Ableton. He's done it for something like a decade already (seriously - anyone, feel free to dig up old threads if you like, to see what you're dealing with).

Tl;dr: yep, I think it sucks that PDC and actual project time (and thus, automation) aren't in sync, but 3phase sucks too. His priority is never constructive discussion on possible problems, even when closely imitating such behavior; he's always here to stir up shit.

broc
Posts: 1151
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:37 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by broc » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:15 am

Nokatus wrote:Live is my chosen environment for a good reason, and I genuinely respect the work Ableton has done in order to create such an application. I really don't like the way automation behaves in relation to PDC, but I also don't want any part in this "certified butt-kisser", "sinking ship" (and so on) nonsense.
+ 1

petit nuage
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:31 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:50 am

its obvious that we love this soft, personaly this is my only one daw since version 4 so i feel at home.
thats why we just want it to be better and why not the best :D
but damn its hard to wait ... :(

Sarrova-Q
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:18 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Sarrova-Q » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:00 am

Would it be possible to have Ableton built some sort of a Max device that checks and reports the latency?
Something like Studio One's PIPELINE but also for internal processing.
This way, when the Max device would report 16ms of latency, you can adjust the track manually and it would be more objective because some plugins report wrong delay times.
When the max device sends something like a ping in the beginning of the audio track and records it back at the end after all your plugins, it would give you the actual delay time.

Still doesn't solve the automation though ...

Come on Ableton, please fix these issues!

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