LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Nokatus
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:06 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Nokatus » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:34 pm

ze2be wrote:To me the positive outcome of these pdc threads is better awareness of the issue, where it happens and how to fix it.
Yep, agreed. And about our recent textwalling :D, it was more like artsy-assed meta pondering than digging into the specific workings of the PDC implementation, hah. Safe to skip if you're primarily trying to find more actual technical info.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:17 am

Nokatus wrote:
ze2be wrote:To me the positive outcome of these pdc threads is better awareness of the issue, where it happens and how to fix it.
Yep, agreed. And about our recent textwalling :D, it was more like artsy-assed meta pondering than digging into the specific workings of the PDC implementation, hah. Safe to skip if you're primarily trying to find more actual technical info.
Definitely, to be fair this is the main reason I'm keeping up with these threads, I've been encouraged by some reaction and feedback that understanding this in depth is important for getting it fixed, it's almost important for making music with Ableton Live. I've stated a few times that I've been burnt by this without realizing, I'm almost embarrassed to say but I believe this issue has touched most of my projects to date and I've had sudden flashbacks realizing exactly what happened, I wish I knew better back then. Note also this issue rarely comes up in publications, I honestly believe most people don't even realize this happens, because in many ways it's very unintuitive.

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 5:33 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by simpli.cissimus » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:28 pm

......................................__................................................
.............................,-~*`¯lllllll`*~,..........................................
.......................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll¯`*-,....................................
..................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,..................................
...............,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.......................... .......
.............;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................................
..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,......................... ..
...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*...........`~-~-,...(.(¯`*,`,..........................
................\llllllllllll,-~*.....................)_-\..*`*;..)..........................
.................\,-*`¯,*`)............,-~*`~................/.....................
..................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;................/.\..................
................./.../.../.../..,-,..*~,.`*~*................*...\.................
................|.../.../.../.*`...\...........................)....)¯`~,..................
................|./.../..../.......)......,.)`*~-,............/....|..)...`~-,.............
..............././.../...,*`-,.....`-,...*`....,---......\..../...../..|.........¯```*~-,,,,
...............(..........)`*~-,....`*`.,-~*.,-*......|.../..../.../............\........
................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*..........|.,*...,*...|..............\........
...................*,.........`-,...)-,..............,-*`...,-*....(`-,............\.......
......................f`-,.........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*....,-*......|...`-,..........\........
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

petit nuage
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:31 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:57 pm

:mrgreen: well summarized...

hec
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:40 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hec » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:29 am

Sarrova-Q wrote:A couple of notes (not directed to anyone, just hope to clarify some things) ...

• PDC and automation sync IS an issue - you can't ignore it, it's a fact. - no need to get offensive and say it isn't a problem.
• Ableton admitted these issues in 2011, please understand many of us want these fixed in 2013.
• Resolving these issues is good. Everyone benefits (whether you only do live sets or you also produce). - no need to get offensive and say it isn't a problem.
• Live is more than just a LIVE program - arrangement view is clearly for making ARRANGEMENTS and thus, doing productions.
• Automation should be in sync under ANY circumstances (I'm holding my breath for session clips automation being out of time - also important when playing live btw!)
• When doing productions, you don't want phase issues because of bad PDC - resulting in a muddy undefined and un-tight sound.
• PDC and automation sync is no rocket science, please make sure you understand the impact and consequences of these issues well enough before posting.
• Bouncing doesn't work for everyone or in any situation (bouncing bad unsynced automation results in bad unsynced automation)
• Some of us NEED ultra tight precision (I do) some of us don't. Respect each other for that.
Someone who knows what is going on. Thank you.

H20nly
Posts: 15844
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:58 pm

yesterday, i bought Cubase 6.5

meanwhile, back at the loop based...

hec
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:40 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hec » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:24 pm

theophilus wrote:well, it is just the automation, like ableton said... any audio out-of-time effects are artifacts of the control signals being out of time. that said, if they already have the pdc problem solved, dunno why they can't add automation PDC - it really is not that complex of a problem, though it does have implications in how the automation is implemented. then again, not sure why they can't add poly aftertouch either - it's a simple midi message, so maybe there are other parts of their implementation that make changes like these difficult.

anyways, in the below, i duplicated a kick track between tracks 1 & 2. both have a volumeshaper on them (used only for the scope view here). a reverberate (w/4096 sample latency, but set to 100% dry, so no effect at all) was put into one of the tracks. the top volume shaper (on the right) is the original track, second one is the one with reverberate in the channel. you can see a significant delay between the two here; it clearly is not coming on the midi click. You can also see this on the top two channels of the oscope (which are in the channels, so 'see' the latency where they are).

However... I put an audio scope on a send (with both channels sending 100%) and the master (bottom two channels). You can see that in this case, ableton lined up the two tracks, and while they still aren't synchronized to the midi beat (they have an offset), they are synchronized to each other, mix together correctly and look the same. i didn't do utility but this is not a single sample offset; it would look massively different if they were being mixed offset from each other.

i just want to completely understand this issue correctly. The tempo sync one in particular is very bad; you can always shift automation around to get it correct, but there's no mechanism to shift around the midi clock. It is technically in sync with the tempo, but the start phase will always be off.


Image
It's flat out disrespectful that Ableton as a company would release a music production product with this fault.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:36 pm

H20nly wrote:yesterday, i bought Cubase 6.5

meanwhile, back at the loop based...
I'm waiting to see if it's free to get a 7 upgrade from 4 to 6.5 but yeah I've already moved back to Cubase, feels like the smart thing at this stage.

kent_sandvik
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:45 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by kent_sandvik » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:03 pm

sdfak1234 wrote:
H20nly wrote:yesterday, i bought Cubase 6.5

meanwhile, back at the loop based...
I'm waiting to see if it's free to get a 7 upgrade from 4 to 6.5 but yeah I've already moved back to Cubase, feels like the smart thing at this stage.
Cubase 7 is indeed amazing. Oh, sorry back to PDC...

Tone Deft
Posts: 24154
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:07 pm

hec wrote:It's flat out disrespectful that Ableton as a company would release a music production product with this fault.
it's funny what reading on the interweb does for your hearing.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

H20nly
Posts: 15844
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:15 pm

kent_sandvik wrote:
sdfak1234 wrote:
H20nly wrote:yesterday, i bought Cubase 6.5

meanwhile, back at the loop based...
I'm waiting to see if it's free to get a 7 upgrade from 4 to 6.5 but yeah I've already moved back to Cubase, feels like the smart thing at this stage.
Cubase 7 is indeed amazing. Oh, sorry back to PDC...
yeah, get back to PDC... oh wait, you don't have PDC.

@ sdfak - the free upgrade to 7 is for anyone who purchases version 6 between October 28th and tomorrow. i'm not sure if you do an upgrade from 4 to 6 if it will work... but i'm inclined to say yes. it's basically the same thing. i have SX3, i used to use it on my PC, but it won't work with OS X Lion... so i upgraded... i should have upgraded to 5 for 199.99 when i had the chance but i missed it. they threw in a free Chanel controller (CMC-CH) when i bought 6 so that was cool.

if any of you want to come over to record and/or mix some tracks without worrying about latencies and offsets, come on over.
bring beer.

hec
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:40 pm

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by hec » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:34 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
hec wrote:It's flat out disrespectful that Ableton as a company would release a music production product with this fault.
it's funny what reading on the interweb does for your hearing.
Sorry you can't hear timing problems kid. It's real.

H20nly
Posts: 15844
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:35 pm

hec wrote:Sorry you can't hire timing problems
no, but you can purchase them in both standard and Suite versions.

sdfak1234
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:40 am

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:58 pm

H20nly wrote: @ sdfak - the free upgrade to 7 is for anyone who purchases version 6 between October 28th and tomorrow. i'm not sure if you do an upgrade from 4 to 6 if it will work... but i'm inclined to say yes. it's basically the same thing. i have SX3, i used to use it on my PC, but it won't work with OS X Lion... so i upgraded... i should have upgraded to 5 for 199.99 when i had the chance but i missed it. they threw in a free Chanel controller (CMC-CH) when i bought 6 so that was cool.
Do you know if that free upgrade applies to upgrades, because I want to buy the upgrade from 4 to 6.5, then get a free update.. I bet that's fine, but I just want to make sure... still waiting for Steinberg to get back to me actually, taking ages.

H20nly
Posts: 15844
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:21 pm

http://www.steinberg.net/en/support/gra ... _info.html


according to that link anyone who "activates" Cubase 6 "full retail version, educational version, updates and upgrades" will get the 7 upgrade. i'd say you're good. 8)

but... you're running out of time.

Post Reply